Global Warming - What do you think (and tell kids)?

[Beavah]

At da end of a great post, uz2bnowl says "PS I don't really believe the planet is baking. "

 

This got me to wonderin' what our Scouter community is teaching our boys (and girls). Few teachers or news media have the impact that we do when we talk to boys about environmental issues sittin' in God's forests under the stars.

 

Seems these days like this issue is being confused and obfuscated by all the politicos and pundits with their own personal agendas, so our role as "trusted adults" is even more important to kids confronted with lots of claptrap.

 

This is as good a place as any to share ideas and learn from each other.

 

So where are you at with Global Warming? What do you understand, what are yeh confused by, and how are you dealing with it with your kids?

 

Beavah

 

[SR540Beaver]

It never comes up and there is evidence on both sides that can be "supported" by science. That being said, teaching LNT and good outdoor stewardship is just part of scouting.

[Beavah]

Me personally, I've been around long enough to watch it happenin'. Old glaciers I once hiked on are completely gone now, places where I used to ski on natural snow for months now primarily make snow with high-tech industrial equipment in order to survive a shorter season. Like as not, people can take a swim on the North Pole in the summer, and I know that never used to happen. No question in my mind, things are gettin' warmer, and way faster than anything I was ever taught to think of as "geological time."

 

From what I understand from friends, the science is just plain hard. The general understanding that some gases trap heat is fine and well understood, but the interaction with oceans and currents and cloud formation and mountains and the earth's rotation and all that are pretty darn complimicated. So we understand the general rules, and we've got solid supporting general evidence, but there's a lot we just don't understand and might not even have right about the specifics. That leads to "broad scientific consensus" about the general stuff and lots of discussion and debate, with some vocal scientific skeptics about the specifics.

 

Then it hits the media and the politicians. Left-leaners take it and make it part of their agenda, rightly reporting the consensus but not all the struggles with the details. Right-leaners and carbon-energy lobbies then have to fight the tree-huggers to protect their livelihood or their political position, and emphasize the debates on all the complications and specifics. Da result is a bunch of morons talkin' definitively about stuff that they don't understand, and confusin' everybody so they "vote" based on their politics, not on the science.

 

So me, I tell kids what I've seen in my life, and then I try to explain how when we work to understand the world it's hard. We've got a pretty good notion that if we hook up a battery and a switch and some LED's, we'll get a light to hike by at night (even though electricity is "just a theory"). But when we dig deeper we find that understandin' what an electron is, and how it interacts with silicon channels in a diode, and the complicated physical chemistry of batteries is really pretty darn hard, and there's stuff that good people still argue and debate about. It's good to know about that stuff, and support more research. But it shouldn't stop us from makin' our best practical decision on whether to use our LED headlamps, even though we don't really understand everything.

 

So I tell 'em Global Warming is like that, eh? We don't understand everything, and there's lots to learn because it's complicated, but that shouldn't stop us from makin' some practical decisions, even hard ones. All the better if those same decisions make us less dependent on despots and fanatics for our energy needs. But hard decisions mean costs, and shifts in labor. Less oil drillers maybe, more uranium miners and windmill makers. Payin' more for gas, maybe takin' fewer scout trips. Real hardships for some families. Issues with other kinds of pollution. Gotta try to figure out how to do that well, but that doesn't mean avoid the issue.

 

Am I doing right by the kids? I don't know. I hope so. How 'bout the rest of you?

 

Beavah

 

[Trevorum]

As a counselor for the Environmental Science merit badge, I can tell you it comes up regularly. [see reqts 1, 2, 3a(2)3 b(2), 3c(1), 3f(1)] IMHO, any ES MB counselor who does not discuss this issue is negligent.

 

Kids are smart. They can pretty much see through the vested interests who deny climate change and they want to know what their world is going to be like after the grownups are dead and gone.

[SR540Beaver]

I've lived in Oklahoma for almost 50 years. I've seen summers where we didn't get any rain for over 100 days with temps well over 100. The cracks in the dirt in the outfield were so big that we had legitimate concerns about kids stepping in them and twisting an ankle. Then I've seen summers where we get plenty of rain and the temps never reach 100. I've seen a fall where it rained so much that the fall baseball season ended up getting cancelled because there was no way to make up all of the rain dates unless we went to Christmas. I've seen falls that are so dry that the leaves never change color.

 

I know what I consider normal for Oklahoma based on my 50 years of experience. I know that sometime within each of those years, something abnormal happens. I remember wearing shorts in December and a jacket on the 4th of July.

 

Is global warming all that Al Gore makes it sound like? Probably not. Is it something to be ignored and should we consider raping the Earth our privilege like someone like Rush would say? Probably not.

 

Just because we are seeing things happening that don't fit into our previous experience does not mean that we are circling the drain. Lets remember that back in the 70's we were headed for another ice age according to the scientists.

 

My personal bottom line is that while I don't like big government, we need a Manhattan Project for alternative fuels. Big oil and the auto companies will never work to reduce their own footprint. There is a lot that can be done to move back to a more balanced environment without giving up our technological advancements.

 

Teaching LNT and good outdoor stewardship to scouts is a step in the right direction.

[scoutldr]

I was dutifully converting all my light bulbs to compact fluourescents to reduce my "Carbon Footprint", until I read an article reminding me that they all contain elemental Mercury...a highly toxic liquid metal. Once all these CFLs start hitting the landfills, we're going to have another environmental problem on our hands unless they have a strict Hg reclamation program. Same thing is true when these Hybrid vehicles hit the 10 year mark and those batteries need replacing. Danged if we do and danged if we don't! Perhaps it's all part of God's plan to keep the Earth from overpopulating! Biblical (and geologic) history shows that every so often, He just cleans house and starts over! We're due for a housecleaning.

 

PS: Speaking of Manhattan Project, I did my graduate internship at the Oak Ridge National Lab in Tennessee, back in the late 70's when it was devoted to energy research and making enriched uranium. The facilties are still there...time to crank it back up!(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[SemperParatus]

In the end the earth will decide how hot or cold it will be. If I had my druthers, I much prefer the bright sunshine and waves gently lapping at my feet to the violent and destructive glacier movements of an ice age.

[Trevorum]

"We're due for a housecleaning"

 

You may be right. Some folks have observed that perhaps intelligence may not be prove to be a successful evolutionary strategy in the long term. The earth would certainly be healthier without humans. Unfortunately, if we go extinct, we're apt to take a lot of other species with us as "colateral damage".

[scottteng]

I am not convinced that man has anything to do with the small amount of warming there has been. NASA has seen similar warming on Mars where there is no human contribution. I do not believe that humans have the power to change the climate. The large furnace in the sky obviously has something to do with the climate. Wind rainfall and clouds also regulate climate. We are nowhere near the medieval warm temperatures as yet. I recommend that everyone check all the information and make up their own mind, with the caution that the side that is running around screaming like chicken little is usually wrong.

[Trevorum]

Everyone is welcome to a perspective.

 

I see a lot of similarities between belief in climate change and belief in evolution. In both cases, the people who spend their careers studying and understanding the issues (climatologists, biologists) are very nearly unamimous, while non-experts are unconvinced. In both cases, there are powerful vested interests who are threatened by the scientific consensus.

 

Well, that's my perspective.

 

(oops, typos)(This message has been edited by Trevorum)

[SMDaveAZ]

I personally believe that global warming is the catastrophe du jour. In the 80s, it was global cooling. In the 90s, it was the hole in the ozone layer. Some climatologists have found a slight warming trend since such things were recorded.  Recently, certain politicians and activists have claimed that this warming trend is caused by human being's use of carbon-based resources.  On the other hand, some paleoclimatologists have found a cyclical trend over many centuries, which would mean that humans have nothing to do with it. 

The thing to be wary about in this debate is that each side has an agenda and investments.

I personally believe that the "global warming" issue isn't really that important.  However, there are related issues that are important to our lifestyle.  First, we need to achieve energy independence.  By relying on certain unsavory characters for our oil, we are putting ourselves, as a country, in a very risky position economically.  Not only that, but researching and developing alternative fuels and energy sources just adds to our choices as consumers.  However, energy independence also includes keeping independence from global, even national, organizations who dictate what a country's "carbon footprint" should be.  We go from dependence on one side of the debate to dependence on the other.

Another issue is one which we Scouts should be especially involved in, environmental responsibility.  We are by far the biggest users of American backcountry.  Every year, this backcountry is damaged, even destroyed, by carelessness, development, and ignorance.  As we teach and live by the principles of LNT, we can become better stewards of the environment.

In all, we need to be wary of who we throw our support behind.  We need to be vigilant in studying out the evidence and decide for ourselves what makes sense.  Not necessarily what someone else tells us.  (For example, I read an article today about an environmental think tank suggesting that the entire world should adopt China's laws regarding offspring all in the name of global warming.)

[GernBlansten]

People who live and play in temperate climates will be the last to see the effects of climate changes. Those of us who travel the fringes see the most evidence. High mountain glaciers receding, permafrost no longer permanent, ice shelves cleaving. Most climatologist are in agreement. Who am I to challenge them?

LNT, A scout is thrifty, all play into us becoming like Teddy Roosevelt.

What part of conserve do conservatives not get?

[TheScout]

There are other things important to conserve as well.

[theysawyoucomin']

This is a good topic.

 

They are scaring my son with this in school much the same way I was scared the Russians were going to blow us up and after seeing the now pronounced fake movie of Bigfoot I was scared of him too.

 

Well the world didn't blow up (though they could tomorrow) and Nobody has produced a Bigfoot.

 

If you leave the room you turn off the light.

 

All my life except in The 'Corps I have lived on a well and septic."Turn the water off"

 

Oil heat in Upstate NY ("shut the door"). And now that I pay for it we don't turn the heat on until November and off asap. When it's on ---it's 62 during waking hours and lower at night. "Put on a sweater"

 

Those new lightbulbs look good and burn less watts. When Home Cheapo started to carry them I got 'em about a year ago. After they warm up they work ok. I don't know who will take them when they burn out. They got Hg in them.

 

 

I do not have air conditioning because."We live on the only habitable planet there is, and we live in the Northern Hemisphere"(my daughter hates that) "We ain't getting air"

 

I was 9 the first time we had gas lines and read lot's of mother earth news. My father sold solar panels in the late 80's.

 

I've raised alot of money for Ducks Unlimited (about $75K) for preserving wetlands.

 

I lived that way because I'm cheap and and I think wetlands are important.

 

I first heard of the theory of global warming in 1975, in seventh grade. I thought in might be true.

 

 

I don't know what to think now except the weather is a little different. I can remember them forecasting an Ice Age when I was about 10 and reading it in the paper. The average temp difference during the ice age was about 10 degrees they say. But they also say it took a couple thousand years.

 

I know Al Gore has a bigger house than I do. Probably has air conditioning. Rides a private jet. There's air conditioning at Greenpeace offices in Washington DC

 

Why Al if you proposed carbon credits did you have anything to do with earning money from them. You should have been above reproach.

Heck even Darth Cheney was expected to completely divest of Halliburton (which he did) PRIOR to being the VP

 

I love to say to Bush haters, "I wish Bush had signed the Kyoto Treaty like India did and China did. They all agree. If you know anything ----you get the joke. Most don't get it.

 

I'm leaving my church because the last sermon I heard was all about how we are wrecking the planet. How can anybody with the faith enough to believe in heaven think that God will just let us fry here on Earth? Save my soul preacher, not the planet. You went to divinity or theology school---not global meteorology school.

 

I have a shack in the Adirondacks the whole place was devoid of a trees at the turn of the century. Now it looks like pristine woods. Whatever we do to the Earth isn't going to last more than 100 years and that's nothing in the life of the planet. Maybe nuclear waste will last a million but that's still about a month in the life of the planet.

 

A meteor struck the Earth and killed all the dinosaurs they say.

 

Well, she healed up pretty good after that.

 

I ask the boys what they think and then I tell them about the Adirondacks and the dinosaurs. I think we are scaring the heck out of people.

 

If you buy it whole hog then You go first, tear down your house, plant trees like pre Columbus. Don't eat anything that has to be trucked to you. Buy a horse or a bike. or just walk. If you get sick demand that no xrays be taken ----Uranium comes from a uranium mine that is in somebody's back yard.

 

Bumper stickers about global warming on the back of a running car are pure irony.

 

Never cross a brige because they are made of concrete and limestone quarries are in somebody's back yard.

 

If you buy it whole hog, walk the walk.

 

Am I better than everybody else because the air conditioning?--- heck no.

I am part of the problem, so is Al gore. So are you.

 

I sometimes wonder if I would have laughed at Noah.

[theysawyoucomin']

ooops I forgot.

 

Having squandered some of my youth in both Lebanon and Kuwait we need to be energy independent.

 

Go Nuclear. The French are adored by the liberal left. the French get 90% of their power from nukes.

 

Solve room temperature fusion, if possible.

Develop the best solar panels possible.

Make every new high rise built have a wind mill. Heck put a huge one on top of the WTC replacement.

Give tax incentives for retro solar and wind on residences. If I was guaranteed a 15 year payback and 16th year free heat and now air conditionig(it's FREE now) and renewable. I would take out a mortgage.

 

Dismantle the nuclear when we can. Or solve the waste issue. Yucca MT. is no real solution.

 

I laugh every time I hear DON"T BUY GAS ON MAY 15. how bright is that?

14th and 16th would be good selling days.

 

How about don't move you car during the weekend for a month. 8 days a month of no driving at all---only work and emergencies. Buy stuff during the week. Make the roads truly vacant for 8 days in 30. just to see what would happen