Fathering a child

[theysawyoucomin']

Lisa

You never inferred about "My loins are taking over". I think many people have the view that "Well there going to do it anyway........

 

That is wrong!!!

 

I also don't know why folks think that a trip to the Doctor for Suzy would make it all better and Johnny could still get his Eagle. That is the furthest thing from my mind.

 

My point was that some folks regard that Eagle badge with such high value that I think that maybe it would give some cause to think of the penalty.

 

I would not want the SM to have to ask. In my community everyone would know.

 

Funny thing, is before about 1969 such an occurance would have been enough to say no to a boy that acted in this fashion and got the results I am speaking about. And I would wager there would have been no place to appeal it to. His Dad would have said "It serves you right " and the matter would have stopped at the Troop.

 

Scoutldr you don't say if that was the reason the Eagle was denied or if there were other grounds. A change of venue can sometime be beneficial when being judged. Which is what every SM conference and BOR does everytime they convene.

 

Now we have come a long way since then but the results are the same for the child. Of course the gov't has all kinds of parachutes to help you. And the numbers for such behavior are thru the roof and climbing. They are exponentially higher than in the days when "shame" was still a word in the American vernacular.

 

So we have one for doing something or at least daring to bring it up, ev who is pondering it and many against.

 

BP once said something like:

We should not forbid a boy to do something because it instantly become adventurous, rather we should show the boy why such behavior isn't beneficial. (Or something along those lines)

 

Thank you all for a lively and spirited discussion.

[OldGreyEagle]

First off I moved this thread, I should have noted it when I moved it

 

next, scoutldr I understand your feelings I think. Since the EBOR was done at the District Level, was there ever any thought of appealing the decision to the Council level? Appeals are always thought of as being from the scout, has there ever been an appeal protesting the awarding of a rank?

 

[Trevorum]

uz2bnowl said: "Makes us sound like a bunch of primates!"

 

I think I understand your point, but, umm, we ARE primates. (Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human)

 

 

[Hunt]

"I also don't know why folks think that a trip to the Doctor for Suzy would make it all better and Johnny could still get his Eagle. That is the furthest thing from my mind."

 

Unless you plan to ask every Eagle candidate whether he has impregnated anybody, this will be the effect. I guarantee you that pregnancies that end in abortions will often not be common knowledge.

[scoutldr]

The first EBOR was troop level. The SM and CC knew about the situation, but chose not to share it with the other committee members who sat the board. The SM/CC stated "what's that got to do with Scouts?" I think they (the committee) were more angry at being blindsided (via a Letter of Recommendation) than anything. They felt that premarital sex and out of wedlock children were not behaviour reflective of the Scout Oath and Law, especially since they were representing the CO, a church. The thing I disagree with is that the District was able to overturn (annulment?) the subjective decision of a Troop committee, even though there was no problem with the process. Standard procedure when a Board denies a rank is for the Board to tell the Scout what he needs to do to "measure up" and try again. Unfortunately, in a case like this, you can't "undo" the deed and make it go away.

 

Personally, I have been torn over this issue, and it has caused me to examine my own beliefs and whether I can still in good conscience serve as a member of the BSA, where some sins are forgiveable and some are not.

[FScouter]

As an analogy, if a Scoutmaster is doing a lousy job, the solution is not for the troop committee to write up a list of do's and don'ts to control the SM. The solution is to select a different SM that understands Scouting and how to implement it.

 

If the problem is that the Eagle board made an improper decision, the solution is not for BSA to establish a list of offenses that exclude a Scout from the Eagle rank. The solution is to select adults to serve on boards of review that understand the purpose of the board of review and understand the Scout Oath and Law.

[evmori]

The thing I disagree with is that the District was able to overturn (annulment?) the subjective decision of a Troop committee, even though there was no problem with the process.

 

I would disagree, too. It seems too many Eagle BOR's like this get overturned because mom and/or dad make a stink, no because the original BOR was wrong.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[LongHaul]

What is the real issue here? Is it that advancing a boy that has fathered a child out of wedlock to the rank of Eagle Scout reflects poorly on the rank or that this boy had pre marital sex? If it's that it would reflect poorly on the rank then I'd ask why such a restriction has not been recommended for scouts being awarded merit badges for which they never mastered the skill, such as many of those received from Merit Badge "Clinics". We have heard of new scouts being sent to a MBC for Personal Management or the like. Should we not include ANY criminal acts? If it is because this boy had pre marital sex then what about those boys that have had pre marital sex but that did not achieve impregnation? Just what is the issue here?

LongHaul

 

[SemperParatus]

Monogamous, they mate for life until the death of one mate. Eyries, large nests lined with twigs, soft mosses, grasses, and feathers, about 2 feet deep and 5 feet wide that they build at the top of sturdy trees grow larger (about 10 feet wide and several tons) when they add new nesting materials each year while repairing before breeding. Nest shapes are determined by whether or not sticks are placed in deep, vertical forks (conical nests), ground or level branches (disk-shaped nests), or tree trunks that suddenly branch into smaller upright branches (bowl-shaped nests). They usually nest in trees, but sometimes on cliffs, and often within 100 miles of where they hatched, staying in the same neighborhood as their parents. Territorial while nesting, they will attack other eagles within their area. The nesting cycle lasts about 20 weeks.

 

Bald eagles are sexually mature around four or five years old and dedicate themselves to finding a mate to raise offspring with. Mating season varies by region. Eagles do not copulate in the air like some believe because pairs have been seen whirling through the air with talons locked in a form of courtship or ritualized battle. Breeding may not occur annually for some eagles by voluntary choice. They may instinctively realize bad timing because of weather, nesting site availability, or food.

 

In the springtime, five to ten days after copulation, the female lays 1 to 3 speckled off-white or buff colored goose-sized eggs a few days apart. During incubation, male bald eagles bring green sprigs of conifer branches to the nest, possibly for deodorizing or shade. Both parents share the duties: hunting, egg incubation, nest watch, eaglet feeding, and eaglet brooding; however, the female does most of the nesting. One parent is always on the nest to keep eggs warm and safe from squirrels, ravens, and gulls. The male will often eat the head of fish and bring the remains to the nest. He shares brooding duties so that the female can stretch, defecate, bathe, preen, and hunt on her own. Eagles need privacy and quiet to breed. If they are disturbed, they may abandon their nest. People should use binoculars and spotting scopes for viewing at a distance.

 

Eaglets hatch after an incubation period of about 35-38 days in the order they were laid, by using their egg tooth, a pointed bump on the top of the beak, to break the shell. Hatching can take half a day to two days. Newly hatched chicks measure 4 to 5, with soft, grayish-white bodies, wobbly legs, and partially closed eyes. When two chicks survive, the older one may kill the smaller one and the parents will not stop them. Parents feed them by shredding pieces of meat with their beaks and while moving around in the nest they wall with their talons balled into fists to avoid harming their young. Eaglets diets consist of fish with supplements of water fowl or birds.

 

Eaglets grow a pound every four or five days and can hold their heads up for feeding around two weeks. At three weeks, they are one foot high and their feet and beaks are near adult size. At six weeks, they are about the size of their parents. They are full size at about 12 weeks and learn to fly. When their wing and tail feathers are fully developed, they can leave the nest. Before first flights, which may be to the nearest branch above the nest, eaglets do vigorous exercise and flapping. They will lift off by facing into prevailing winds and flapping or may be forced to fly by parents.

 

About 40% survive their first flight and only about half survive their first year for various reasons including starvation and the inability to recognize poisoned food.

 

 

[scoutldr]

In another thread, Beavah writes:

 

"So let me take a step back. I think in the end, if we focus too much on specifics, we lose the goals. Dluders, in your mind, is this boy an Eagle Scout? That is to say, is he a boy that you'd be happy standing up in front of a room of other people - and especially other younger boys you're trying to mentor - and saying "This is what an Eagle is". Then joining in applauding the lad.

...

But if he's not a boy you can genuinely hold up to the parents, CO, and especially to other boys as an example and "hero" of sorts, then yeh have an obligation not to, and to keep working with him. And if your program is promotin' and signin' off on such lads, then yeh should be about fixing that, too. Eagle isn't the spot to catch things. A Star Scout should also be a good example to younger boys."

 

Thanks Beav! That about sums it up for me.

 

[Trevorum]

I've always had problems with holding up the idea of an Eagle Scout as a "hero", as someone different somehow than most boys. I've always stressed to our fellows that every single one of them CAN become an Eagle - if they want it enough and if they work hard. It's not out of reach for any boy.

 

I believe there are some types of character flaws that should be recognized in a SM conference and - if not otherwise mitigated - should prevent further advancement using the "Scout Spirit" paradigm. However, I also believe that there is no transgression, no behavior, no moral lapse so awful that it should ipso facto deny a boy Eagle advancement, so long as he demonstrates understanding, genuine remorse, and character growth.

 

[SWScouter]

LisaBob wrote, "No I think that goes way too far. Looking at it from the perspective of working with youth, it is the parents' or guardians' job to deal with youth sexual behavior - NOT the BSA leaders' job. Looking at it from the perspective of adult volunteer leaders, the BSA can darn well keep its nose out of the bedroom. This is a volunteer organization, not a religion and not a cult, and the BSA doesn't/shouldn't expect to regulate these most personal aspects of people's lives."

 

I guess I don't understand nor follow this. Here we are, as volunteers of the BSA, tasked to "prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." How can we do that if we completely ignore the aspect of human sexual morality? Especially when its the one aspect of human morality where, I believe, there has been a huge lapse! Our youth are bombarded with examples of immoral sexual behavior. Why shouldn't we be a voice speaking out against that type of behavior? Shouldn't we, as leaders be forthright in our beliefs and how this immoral behavior has consequences such as uz2bnowl states?

 

Speaking out about these hard topics wouldn't be new to scouting. BP is known to have had talks with scouts about sexual relationships and masterbation. These are topics that can be confusing and stressful to young men and women. Perhaps we should take his lead and help the scouts when warranted.

 

SWScouter

[Venividi]

Trevorum wrote: I also believe that there is no transgression, no behavior, no moral lapse so awful that it should ipso facto deny a boy Eagle advancement, so long as he demonstrates understanding, genuine remorse, and character growth.

 

Trevorum,

I don't see your position as being outside of what Beavah wrote. If you see a scout with genuine understanding, remorse, and character growth after a mistake or moral failing, and believe showing understanding/remorse/character growth is the behaviour showing role modeling, then by all means, proceed with the award and hold the scout up as role model behavior.

 

I do believe that it is appropriate that units have the ability to set their own standards here. Some CO's would have difficulty with some activities/behaviour/transgression/moral lapses. And should be able to make such a decision through their BOR decisions. Personnally, I think there are some things that are deal breakers, no matter how remorseful. Hypothetical examples: participation in an inter-high school fight that ends in a death; drinking and driving resulting in a fatal accident. Though I do not presume to speak for everyone.

[packsaddle]

I still agree with LisaBob on this. BSA should keep its nose out of business that rightly belongs to the family setting. Same as with religious belief. I can think of perhaps two scout leaders who are competent to address some aspect of human sexuality and I know at least a hundred parents who would come down hard on them for discussing with their son, the topic of masturbation or nearly anything else along those lines. For better or worse, let the parent be the parent or else "Be Prepared" to take on a huge amount of personal responsiblity yourself for what you say to the boys.

[Lisabob]

With regard to discussing sexual behavior/activity with youth, I think it matters a great deal whether the topic is broached by the scout or by the adult. I would be profoundly uncomfortable with some adult initiating such a conversation with my son. So much so, in fact, that I would probably move my child to a different troop. It isn't that I'm squeamish, nor that I feel I'm the only person my son should ever talk to about these issues. But I don't think most troop leaders can or should presume to know what every family in the troop believes and teaches their children at home about these issues. They can't know what the family's experiences are or have been. And given that we live in a society where people have, sometimes, widely different standards of acceptable behavior in this area, the potential for stepping into a minefield by initiating such a conversation is huge. And I don't mean political correctness - I mean giving "advice" that is contrary to what parents believe or are teaching at home on this deeply personal and complex topic. I mean sitting in judgment of a family without necessarily meaning to, or knowing the details of their lives. And of course there are tremendous emotional implications to discussing this topic. Do you really want to open that can of worms with the youth in your troop? Are you equipped to deal with it?

 

Not to mention that there is always a risk of inadvertently passing along incorrect information. Unless, of course, there's going to be some sort of official BSA training on this (ugh, I don't really want to see that! Look, we can't even get the right information at training about awards and advancement half the time - imagine how badly some hapless district flunky could mess up this topic!).

 

Even the public middle schools and high schools around here offer parents a preview of the health/sex ed curriculum with opt-outs along the way and that should give us, as volunteers not trained in teaching this subject matter or dealing with the consequences, serious pause.

 

Now, if a scout were to approach a Scouter with these sorts of questions or seeking advice, that's different. It provides an opening for the scouter to share his or her view - clearly labeled as such, with a strong prompt for the scout to discuss the same issue with parents/guardian. And if I were that Scouter in question, I'd make sure some other adult knew that the conversation had occurred, the circumstances, and what was said.

 

I guess, to my way of thinking, something Eamonn said a while back in another thread makes the best sense. He said something along the lines that the BSA views youth members as asexual beings. (I believe this was in context of a discussion on homosexuality but please correct me if I'm wrong Eamonn.) I think this is a very smart decision on the part of the BSA. And I think the mere fact that Scouting is a place where sexuality is NOT part of the daily fare makes a strong statement to our scouts, in contrast to some elements of pop culture.