Fathering a child

[evmori]

Prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law

 

If we, as adult leaders, are charged with this, then how can we justify not questioning and/or investigating the circumstances around a teenager in our unit fathering a child? How is that ethical or moral?

 

We seem to get caught up in things like uniforming & ignore what is really important.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

Ed, since you seem to advocate poking your nose into their business, I'm interested in learning how you propose to do it. Start from the point where you learn about the situation in the first place.

How did you learn this? Gossip? Rumor? The young woman? How do you know there is any truth to this in the first place? How do you learn the details without confronting the principal parties? And on what authority do you confront them?

Perhaps she's withholding important information (like the true identity of the father). How do you propose to learn that? Are you going to confront the parents? If not, why not? If so, how are you going to do this? On what authority?

 

These are just a few questions before you even get started on your quest to teach them a lesson in morality. Answer these first and then we can go on to the inquisition.

[Hunt]

"Unfortunately, in a case like this, you can't "undo" the deed and make it go away."

 

That's true of all immoral acts, and everybody has committed his share. To me, there are only two elements of this one that make it different: (1) the results of the act are apparent to everybody, and (2) at least arguably, immoral behavior is continuing.

To me, the first of these is not that important. Thus, for example, I make no moral distinction between a person who is arrested for driving drunk and a person who drives drunk and kills somebody. The sin is the same; the consequences are tragically worse for the second. In all these cases, it's the response of the person to the wrongful act that is important.

I suppose I think there are crimes that should permanently disqualify a boy from becoming an Eagle Scout. Dealing drugs, armed robbery, etc. Drunk driving, for me, would be close to the line and would require a lot to overcome. Sleeping with your girlfriend (in most cases) isn't a crime at all. I'm not saying it's OK, but it's in the realm of personal morality, and that makes in much more difficult for us to draw lines for other people. Would you disqualify a boy from Eagle if you learned that he was gambling? Would it matter how much money he lost?

Don't get me wrong--the idea of making an unwed father who is living with the mother an Eagle Scout gives me tremendous heartburn, but the whole problem of judging the overall morality of a young man gives me even more heartburn.

[evmori]

I am not advocating poking my nose into anyones business!

 

In answer to all your questions, packsaddle, you need to make sure what you have heard is true. A little investigation can resolve that. Once you are sure you have the facts, you handle the situation appropriately.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

ED-ucate me Ed. I asked, "How do you know there is any truth to this in the first place?"

You replied, "In answer to all your questions, packsaddle, you need to make sure what you have heard is true."

DUH!

and then,

"A little investigation can resolve that. Once you are sure you have the facts, you handle the situation appropriately."

Well DUUHH AGAIN!

 

I'm asking for the details, Ed. How are you going to accomplish this 'investigation'? How are you going to establish the truth in the first place?

You say you're not poking your nose into someone else's business. On what basis do you think this is YOUR business? Come on, it either IS your business or it is NOT your business. Which is it?

[Trevorum]

I can hear it now: the troop committee holds hearings into the activities of the morally suspect scout, and he replies, "I did not have sex with that woman."

 

[Lisabob]

Ed, with respect, what does it mean to you to say that you'd "handle the situation appropriately?" And exactly how would you engage in that investigation? You make this sound easy.

 

I don't want to suggest that a boy who comes to a troop meeting bragging about his sexual exploits and his impending fatherhood should then be clapped on the back and handed an Eagle badge without serious thought and discussion. But much of the time, unless (even if) you are in a VERY small town, things are just not that blatant. Unless your own family is somehow directly involved, you're going to be dealing with RUMORS, which as we all know, are problematic, messy matters.

 

And these are not the sorts of questions you can just slip into conversation over a cup of coffee at the local diner. So in order to do this investigation, who exactly are you going to ask, and how?

 

Supposing that there is a rumor in "need" of investigation, I see three possibilities:

1) Ask the boy(s) and/or girl directly.

2) Ask their parents.

3) Ask some school official or the girl's doctor or the families' religious leaders.

 

In the first case, as a parent if I found out that some adult was giving my kid the third degree about something like this, I'd be down your throat in a heartbeat and it would not be pleasant. "How dare you?" comes to mind, followed by a string of uncivil comments about minding your own darn business. And double the problematic reception you're going to get if some of the people involved don't know you well (from scouting, perhaps) to start with.

 

In the second case - I'd tell you to go jump in a lake.

 

In either of the above, supposing you don't get tossed out on your ear for merely asking, how are you going to secure proof if the subjects of your investigation aren't forthcoming? Will you demand to see a birth certificate or DNA test results? By what authority? Keep in mind that at least one of the parties involved is NOT in your boy scout troop so you have even less authority with the girl's family.

 

In the third case, I doubt you'd get any information (confidentiality, etc.) but if you did, and if I were the parent of one of the kids in question, again, I'd be so far beyond ticked off.

 

Now, suppose that this turns out to be nothing more than a rumor - or at least, no pregnancy seems to materialize after all. Now what? You may have inadvertently helped to spread a malicious rumor about one, or all, of the parties involved. And don't tell me that wouldn't ever happen. High school kids, girls especially, can be mean and ruthless and they do, sometimes, spread these kinds of nasty rumors.

 

Again, speaking as a parent, if my child became the unwarranted subject of your investigation, not only would I be letting you know in no uncertain terms how I felt, but I'd also be letting the SE, the DE, and your CO know too, in writing and face to face. And if my kid were in the same troop with you? Either we'd be switching troops or you'd be leaving because no way would I ever trust you with my child again.

 

If this comes across as a bit harsh, I'm sorry. Ed, I do believe you're a "good guy" with the best of intentions. And I am not suggesting that we simply turn our backs to morality issues. But there are so many, very messy, questions and problems that arise from what you seem to view as a fairly simple investigation. And if you're wrong, the blowback for you personally, for the troop, for the CO, and for the image of Scouting in the community in general, could be tremendously negative.

 

So here's the thing with uz2bnowl's proposal:

Most of the time there'd be no way to enforce it, short of engaging in inquisitorial behavior. Inquisitions have a tendency to harm more people than they "help." I'm not willing to put up with, or be part of, such behavior. Nor do I believe the BSA would want to actively pursue such a policy.

 

As for "Prepar[ing] young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law," my thought is that this is something we do in small doses, by practical example, every day rather than through investigations of youth members' alleged sexual activity.

[GernBlansten]

Oh the fun we could have rooting out immorality...

 

BOR: Now, are you a homosexual?

Scout: You mean like flaming? Or part time?

BOR: Well, it's a question we have to ask of all our scouts.

Scout: No, I'm not homosexual, but I am *willing to learn*.

BOR: I'll just put that as a 'no'.

[evmori]

So let's just put a Scout who fathers a child out of wedlock on a pedestal & award him his Eagle because we don't want to make waves by asking questions.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

As I posted I don't shy away from discussing things with the Scouts in the Ship.

I of course don't go out of my way to bring up things that might be termed controversial.

 

Maybe because of my upbringing I'm not comfortable discussing sex. Growing up it was never mentioned in our home. Even at school teaching was assigned to people from the Department of health who came in and spent most of the time talking about STD's.

 

I really like the "Inspector Morse" series that has been aired on PBS and A&E. In one episode Morse has to go into a school. The teacher is showing the students the correct way to put on a condom, using a condom and a banana. The look on Morse's face kinda sums how how embarrassed I'd feel if I had to teach a class like that.

 

Advancement in the BSA is just one of the methods we use to help us work toward bringing the Vision and Mission to life.

We are in the business of helping young people.

Seems to me if we are happy to take away one of the methods, we are in fact saying that one is more important than the others?

I suppose we could take away:

Uniform: Not allowing Scouts who don't live up to expectations to wear a BSA uniform.

Leadership Development: Never allowing him to hold a leadership position or attend leadership training.

Outdoors: Never permitting him to attend any camps or outdoor events.

We could shun the Scout and not allow him to be a member of a Patrol or associate with any adults in Scouting.

I don't see how we might take away Personal Growth?

 

In the 30 + years I have served as a leader I have had Scouts who have been caught doing things that they shouldn't have been doing. These things range from things that with hindsight now seem funny to more serious things.

Back in the day I was a regular going into the juvenile courts to do what I could to keep Scouts who had been caught from going to jail.

The Scouts knew that what they did was wrong.

I seen my part /role as doing what I could to help them do what was needed to be good citizens, strong characters and have a a good level of physical and mental fitness.

In order to do this working with the Scout we came up with a plan (sometimes with the help of the courts and the probation officers.)

A lot of times Advancement was the "Carrot" that we used to keep the Lad in Scouting and at times was the yardstick used to measure how well he was doing.

Sometimes we failed and failed miserably. Sometimes it worked for a while and sometimes we had wonderful successes.

 

The big debate about what to teach our young people about sex is raging on. Should we teach safe sex or try and teach abstinence?

At the last world Scout Jamboree condoms were available to the Scouts who attended.

I think (I don't know) that the thinking was it was better to prevent HIV-AIDS and STD's. Even the Roman Catholic Church is starting to come around to that way of thinking.

Still I feel nearly all of the Sea Scout parents would take a dim view of me handing out condoms!

The "Take Home Message" would be hard to explain.

 

We do what we can to teach the youth we serve to be good and responsible citizens.

If asked I will say that unplanned parenthood outside of marriage is not a good thing.

Most of all because I feel it is unfair to the baby.

If however it does happen, rather than a national directive we need to try and support the young man and the other people involved on a individual case by case basis.

He might be able to find a way to support the child?

The girls parents might never allow him to see the baby or the child?

There is way too much going on for a one rule fits all.

 

We have had youth who have joined the Ship who have been labeled by the other Scouts as being Gay or as being Sluts. (She has had way too many boyfriends.)

As far as I see my role?

I'm not here to pass judgment.

If a girl who was an unmarried mother wanted to join the Ship? (No it has never happened.) I see no reason why she shouldn't.

The BSA views youth members as asexual beings.

Just as we view that Scouts will do their best to be all the good things they say they will be when they recite the Scout Oath and Law.

I like to think that I have spent a long time trying to get all this good stuff right. But the truth is at times I know I don't do that great a job. I could I suppose hang my head in shame and go and hide or I can recognize my wrong doing if there is a penalty or consequence deal with it and then try to do better. - Till the next time.

Eamonn

 

 

[DanKroh]

Lisabob, I only have one word for the likes of you....

 

 

 

 

BRAVO!!!!

[John-in-KC]

Ed,

 

Lisa has asked you a question. She's not the only one asking the question. We want to hear your approach to this, because if we're confronted with the issue, we'll have a starting point.

 

How do you propose to obtain your answers...?

[packsaddle]

Eamonn,

Your post reminded me how often I have also heard young persons refer to any particular young woman as a 'slut'. This invokes a strong reaction in me, mostly because of the most famous occasion I ever heard in which Dr. Bob Jones of Bob Jones University called first lady Betty Ford a slut. My estimation of anyone who does something like that is very low. It's the price they pay for their bad choices and my long memory.

 

Ed, I'm still waiting as well. I second LisaBob's estimation that you're not a bad guy. But either you have not thought this through and should admit it if that's the case, or else you have-in which case we all would greatly benefit from your solution so you should share it with us.

[evmori]

I guess these are the questions.

 

Ed, with respect, what does it mean to you to say that you'd "handle the situation appropriately?"

 

What you find out from your investigation should determine how you will handle it.

 

 

And exactly how would you engage in that investigation? You make this sound easy.

 

Try to ascertain the facts. I never said it would be easy. And you might never get the whole story.

 

Are these the questions I was called here to answer?

 

And yeah I am a good guy!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

packsaddle

I kinda think you know that I would never call a young girl /Lady who wanted to join our organization any sort of a bad name.

Sadly the youth members do use terms like the one I mentioned.

Even when they use "Gay" it's used as some sort of name calling.

 

I feel very strongly that Scouting isn't just for the "Good little Boys and Girls".

I know that we can't reach all the kids who would or might benefit from being a member. Still I have to admit that I find the idea that anyone feels a "national directive" is needed to place obstacles in the way of kids who might benefit from whatever good we can do to be very upsetting.

I don't know very much about Betty Ford.

I do believe that as First Lady she did a lot in many areas: Breast Cancer, Addiction,Woman's Rights to name but a few.

I have to wonder if we knowing the hurdles that she faced,would think she has/ or had the makings of a good Scouter?

Eamonn.

(I'll bet even at her age she is a better dancer than I am!!)