Scouting aims to connect with Muslims

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn

You must really be a lawyer. You have parced everything I said into what you want it to be.

 

Terrorism has DECREASED, ie, we haven't been attacked at home or at our embassies since 9/11 and neither has Spain or England or Australia and others as evidenced by thwarted attempts.

 

As for a lot of countries being breeding grounds for terrorists, perhaps we should invade before they attack us. (Just maybe)

 

It still isn't just about Iraq attacking us, but the terrorist Saddam supported.

 

To use some of your legal stuff on you: I said, "you probably think Adolf Hitler was a good guy too" Therefore, I didn't actually say that you believe Hilter and Saddam are good guys, I suggested. I am an honest person who dislikes you. If we ever meet in person, I'll be kind and courteous and so on to you, I just won't like you.

 

 

I thank god every day for President Bush. He's not perfect, I don't agree with everything he says or does, but he is surely better than either Gore or Kerry. What would Gore or Kerry have done? Try to sit down and have coffee? try to understand why they don't like us? Try to be inclusive? Guess what - - - - They (extreme muslims) hate our guts and want to kill all of us.

 

I wish I knew how to download audio clips of politicians saying things. Like Bill clinton Hilary clinton, Ted hiccup Kennedy, John Kerry, Al Gore and a bunch of others who all said that Saddam had WMD's and would use them. Those folks are all D E M O C R A T S aren't they? Democrats all said Saddam was dangerous and a Republican did something about after 13 or 14 warnings.

 

The Bush administration hasn't forgotten about bin-laden, what is quickly becoming the forgotten war of the day, U.S. and coalition forces are in Afganistan killing taliban terrorists and looking for bin-laden. Personal opinion - - - he's dead.

 

Priority? We went to Afganistan FIRST.

 

Just so you know, I don't like you. I'll me nice, I won't call you names, I just disagree with you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

Merlyn

You must really be a lawyer. You have parced everything I said into what you want it to be.

 

No, I parse things the way they're stated.

 

Terrorism has DECREASED, ie, we haven't been attacked at home or at our embassies since 9/11 and neither has Spain or England or Australia and others as evidenced by thwarted attempts.

 

This is flat-out wrong.

 

The anthrax mail attacks started one week after 9/11. That was a terrorist attack against the US (still unsolved).

 

On March 11, 2004, 191 people were killed when commuter trains in Madrid were bombed by Muslim terrorists.

 

On July 7, 2005, 52 commuters were killed by bombs planted on the London Underground and an attack on a bus, again by Muslim terrorists. A few days later on the 21st there was another attempted attack, but the detonators failed to trigger the main charges and nobody was killed. al-Qaeda took credit for this attack on Sept 1, 2005.

 

I don't know of any terrorist attacks in Australia since 9/11 offhand, but the Bali bombings on Oct 12, 2002, killed 88 Australians (out of 202 total killed). Again, a Muslim terrorist group.

 

It's pointless to debate anything with you when you can't even remember terrorist attacks from just a few years ago that got immense, world-wide media coverage. I mean, it's one thing to argue that things are somehow "better", but you're contradicting reality to a ridiculous degree.

 

I thank god every day for President Bush. He's not perfect, I don't agree with everything he says or does, but he is surely better than either Gore or Kerry. What would Gore or Kerry have done? Try to sit down and have coffee?

 

Do you remember what Bush did when he first heard of the terrorist attack against the World Trade Center? After the second plane hit, so everyone knew it was a terrorist attack and not an accident?

 

He did NOTHING for over 7 minutes. He was reading "The Pet Goat" with a grade school class.

 

He was the ONLY person authorized at the time who could order a civilian airliner shot down (they have since changed this so other people can issue this order, in case we still have an incompetent president at the time).

 

While he was reading a kid's book, the report of a third hijacked airliner came in from NORAD. To bad the president was completely worthless and neglecting his duties. He wasn't in touch with NORAD at the time, though he certainly could have been and ought to have been.

 

Sorry, your hypothetical scare stories of what Gore or Kerry "might" have done pale in comparison to our actual, dengerously incompetent president. When America was under terrorist attack, he continued to READ A KID'S BOOK FOR SEVEN MINUTES.

 

How incredibly stupid, negligent, and appallingly incompetent is that? If this was in a movie script, nobody would believe it.

(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[ASM915]

1.) Trev, Thanks for clarifying on the God/Allah thing. You beat me to it.

 

2.) Mosque, Church, Temple, Synagogue. Just stick them in alphabetical order and FORGET ABOUT IT. Who really cares which order they're in?

 

3.)IRA/Al Qaeda. Lisa and Young Thing, let's get real.

AQ hates the Americans, but they kill indiscriminately; Americans, Shii, Sunni, other Muslims, Spanish Brit's.

 

IRA and the Brit.'s, Lisa the IRA learned their skills from the Brit.'s, especially after over 800 years of harassment and terror. Granddad was pure Irish born off the boat, and grandmom's English ancestors were sent to Eire as the Vice Counts to rule the natives. At least the IRA and Brit's didn't go around indiscriminately killing everyone else. OOPS, if I wanted to be real bad, I guess the Brit's did, you know, with their attempted colonization of the world, India, Africa, N. America, Australia. Maybe we should compare AQ with the Brit's instead of the IRA.

 

What can I say? My family hates each other, Irish/English, England and the Colonies, North and South, Big Brother and my Native Brothers.

 

Young Thing, close the borders to immigration to protect us? Sounds a bit like Adolph there. Also FDR. Once the borders are closed, what do we do with the Muslims already here? Should we toss them in the internment camps like the Japanese? How about just putting more stringent restrictions on the entry visa's. Gonzo's friends can keep a close watch on the new entries. They've done a nice job since 9-11. No attacks on American soil.

 

One point for Gonzo, BUT MERLYN TIES THE SCORE. Sorry Gonzo, Merlyn has you on terrorist attacks overseas since 9-11.

 

Did you all know that Iraq has a Scouting Movement that is over 60 years old?Went underground during Saddam, but they are trying to make a comeback. I don't think they want to kills us, eh?

 

WASN'T THIS ORIGINAL THREAD ABOUT SOMEONE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING NICE WITH SCOUTING AND THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY????

 

HOW IN THE HELL DID WE GET ON IRISH KILLING ENGLISH, ENGLISH TORTURING IRISH, AL QAEDA KILLING EVERBODY, WHICH RELIGIOUS STRUCTURE IS LISTED FIRST, THE DAMNED DRP, ADOLPH AND OSAMA?

 

Maybe if we stopped running around with this PHOBIA OF WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN (Beavah, wasn't this one of your previous threads?), be sensitive and aware of our neighbors and non-American/Christian Scouts cultural differences and work together, just maybe the world could become a better place.

 

(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[Lisabob]

ASM915, I'll concede that maybe the IRA example was too far afield. There are certainly differences between the IRA and Al Qaeda. The point I was trying to make is that we tend to be more sympathetic to groups (like the IRA) where we understand a bit about their convoluted history. That doesn't mean we whole heartedly support their methods, but at least we sort of see why they're upset. Most Americans do not understand the Muslim world at all, far less understand what Al Qaeda is about. Not in the vein of justifying, mind you, but more in the vein of basic knowledge - one of bin Laden's major complaints in the 1990s was that the US had occupied sacred ground (in Saudi, mainly, but elsewhere too). Now, was that a convenient excuse for a terror campaign? Sure, probably - but you know what, it has a certain resonance with people who, 15 years later,see that US forces on the ground in the M.E. have increased, not decreased, and that the (at least tangential) result has been more, not less, bloodshed and misery for local people.

 

By the way, if you read what bin Laden was saying in the 1990s, it is hard to imagine that he viewed Saddam Hussein's regime with anything other than disgust - he actually advocated removing the non-religious governments of several M.E. countries frequently (incl. Iraq and Saudi Arabia) . Doesn't help us - but it does make the argument that Iraq under Hussein was in cahoots with Al Qaeda, as it was then constituted by bin Laden, at least doubtful.

 

But - YES ERIC, I AGREE. This thread began with an article about how Muslim groups and Scouts Canada had found that they shared a lot of common ground. How nice. And then it quickly disintegrated into xenophobic, isolationist, nastiness. How sad.

[theysawyoucomin']

Merlyn,

I don't know what the whole speech said so I should not really comment. He had to say something to men and women that will give 12 years of their life learning and serving to keep the wolf from the door.

 

Are you Michael Moore in cognito? He was an Eagle.

If Al Gore had continued reading with kids for another 7 minutes I don't think I could hold that against him. We don't know what was whispered in GWB's ear. At that moment not too many people really knew what was going on. I think it took the Air traffic control folks more than seven minutes and those were frontline folks no somebody at the top of the chain of command. I know you're not a warrior but the Generals never know as much about a specific incident as a fire team leader.

 

 

My main thought with the initial comment was why are we reaching ot to a group when 40% of them think our nation is lying to it's people thinking that we could kill 3 or 4k of our own people.

 

Further, there is no central leading figure that denounces the September 11 attacks.(if there is Lisa please provide a link)

 

 

ASM,

I drove the train off the tracks, and probably should stay off the issues and politics page.

[Lisabob]

Owl, just as there is no single spokesperson for the Christian world (the Pope doesn't count - he only speaks for Catholics), there is no single, central figure one can turn to in the Muslim world. While there are two major sects within Islam (Sunni and Shia), there are also many other, smaller variations within, and in addition to, these two well known groups.

 

Still, there have been MANY scholars and leaders and ordinary people from various Islamic communities who have spoken out against the atrocities committed on 9/11. For examples, you might check some of the links here:

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

 

This is an academic group, very well regarded by the way, of scholars of Islam and the Arab world. (Not all members of the group are Muslims or Arabs). They put this page together after 9/11 to help people see/find statements by Muslims (leaders and ordinary people) from around the world who did indeed speak out against the attacks.

 

Or you might go to this link:

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

 

This is a listing of statements by Islamic leaders who spoke out against 9/11. It includes some very prestigious and respected people.

 

Or you might try this site:

http://home.wlu.edu/%7Elubint/islamonWTC.htm

 

This contains many links to articles and statements by Muslims around the world regarding 9/11 and also the nature of Islam.

 

 

Or there are plenty of others. So yes, in fact, many, many Muslims have been speaking out against the violence that groups like Al Qaeda embrace. The difficulty for us, I think, is that most Americans do not have links to the Muslim community, and also that this much more moderate and nuanced world view expressed by many Muslim groups makes for bad shock-news infotainment. It takes time and care to understand and to engage in real discussion, rather than slinging incendiaries. Very few news shows these days are interested in such careful work because we (the viewing public) don't watch when they do that. Much easier to just report that there has been another explosion here or there and show some graphic photos of the wreckage. That grabs people's attention and makes for "exciting" news coverage where a reasoned discourse with a bunch of scholars does not. So as a society, we may not be very aware of these statements by Muslims against violence - but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

uz2bnowl writes:

We don't know what was whispered in GWB's ear

 

Yes, we do (or at least people who have paid attention); the person who did the whispering was White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card, and it was widely reported that he told Bush "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack."

 

Bush was told, specifically, that the US was under attack. He chose to do nothing.

 

I think it took the Air traffic control folks more than seven minutes

 

Read a timeline of the 9/11 events. NORAD found out about the third hijacked plane about six minutes after Card whispered in Bush's ear, but Bush was still reading a kid's book instead.

 

My main thought with the initial comment was why are we reaching ot to a group when 40% of them think our nation is lying to it's people thinking that we could kill 3 or 4k of our own people.

 

You are hardly one to complain about other people's ignorance.

[TheScout]

ASM915, You illustrate my point.

 

"How about just putting more stringent restrictions on the entry visa's. Gonzo's friends can keep a close watch on the new entries."

 

The ever increasing presence of Muslims of questionable loyalty would force our security forces to "keep a close watch" on people inside America, citizen or not. Governments like excuses to do such things. The more Muslims there are, the better the excuse they have. I say keep them out to better protect the freedom of all CITIZENS, Muslim and not.

 

Please note I never advocated anything close to internment. Muslim citizens have the same constitutional rights as any of us and deserve to be protected as such.

 

 

[ASM915]

Merlyn,

Maybe GWB and Puttin are in cahoot's. You know, like the movie "WAG THE DOG".

 

Maybe GWB covertly funded the WTC attack to get the Americans to side with him so he could go to war and get into another country, for what ever reason.

Just like Puttin. What better way to get your freedom loving former communists to side with you about closing your borders, then cancelling regional elections so you don't have any opposition, then head back towards the old form of government, then to blow up a school full of Russian children being held by Chechen rebels. Bet his money was involved in it from the start.

 

Owl,

I'll bet the 40% was a lot higher with the Germans after WWII, thinking we lied to them about good old Adolph. Unfortunately I have met a few that were children during the war, and until this day, they think Adolph was the greatest and that we lied and continue to do so, about his atrocities. A matter of fact, didn't we allow them into the country after WWI. Look what happened.

 

Hey, oldtimers, did we have a problem with the Germans back then like we're having with the Muslims now?

 

Scout, did we close the borders then? Didn't the Japanese citizens have Rights in the 40's?

 

WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO A SCOUT IS HELPFUL, FRIENDLY, COURTEOUS AND KIND?THINK WE ARE FORGETTING SOMETHING HERE?

SO MUCH FOR BROTHERLY LOVE. LET'S BAR THE DOORS AND WINDOWS. EVERYONE IS OUT TO GET US!!!

 

Well it's been fun. Maybe we should all go to the World Jamboree. Maybe we would forget about some of these ridiculous arguments.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[ASM915]

Sorry, the last post wouldn't allow me to edit.

 

After the second paragraph, add "THE CONSPIRACIST ARE RUNNING AMOK."

 

And Merlyn, I'll bet "SHOOTER" was one of your favorite flix's.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

ASM915, are you some kind of conspiracy nut? I've been correcting gross misinformation of well-known terrorist attacks and what Card told Bush after the second tower was hit. Maybe your tinfoil hat is on too tight.

[Kudu]

TheScout writes:

 

"I am not sure where they rant came from."

 

Your posts could just as easily be characterized as "rants" by anyone who wants to dismiss your views about the implications of the Pew poll without actually addressing them.

 

"Though I support the BSA, I do not support is congressional monopoly. I have also never seen anyone on this forum (or at least in this tread) in support of the monopoly either."

 

Then you have never debated your libertarian view of the BSA's Congressional monopoly on this forum!

 

"Lastly, the DRP are not imposed on anyone. Members of the BSA join and subscribe to the DRP through their own free wil."

 

What kind of libertarianism is that? I subscribe to the "Free Markets, Free Minds" variety in which those who are opposed to the DRP (free minds) have the right to join a competing Scouting association (free market) without the current government-imposed religious regulation of the Scouting industry.

 

Kudu

 

[ASM915]

Merlyn,

You must have missed last nights post. I back you up on attacks on foriegn soil, because you were correct.

 

Maybe Georgie didn't do anything, because he emulated Puttin. OH NO maybe I'm a Islamist Muslim, NOT!!!

 

It was all you crackpots who jumped on the bandwagon crying, "WHY ARE WE CATERING TO THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY, THEY DON'T LIKE US. SOME OF THEM WILL TRY, HAVE TRIED AND KILLED SOME OF US." Oh' I'm sorry, I forgot we live in a perfect country, "U.S. 2006 HOMICIDE RATE, ZERO", not. I'll bet more U.S. citizens died last year at hands of U.S citizens, then were killed in the war.

 

It's ashame that all the nuts come out of the woodwork with all the Xenophobia, and bowbeat a Scouter that is trying to do some good in his community to bridge the cultural differences so people can learn from eachother and get along with eachother

 

Merlyn,

As for the conpiracies, I didn't start them, just having fun with them. Aren't they outlandishly ridicules, like some of the other posts in this thread. Get the idea.

[TheScout]

ASM915,

 

Brotherly love is great when we can give it. But our first responsibility is to protect the lives and liberties of American citizens.

 

The comparison with Germans in the 1940's is out of whack. At that point there had been many Germans in the country for over 200 years and made of a significant part of the population. I am also unaware of any disloyalty on the part of the Germans that is comparable to that of the Muslims with regard to severity or as a percentage of their population in the US.

 

Hypothetically, if there were never any Muslims allowed in this country, the September 11 attacks would never have happened and an extra 3,000 Americans would be alive today. I don't think that would have been a bad thing.

 

Kudo,

 

I'm on your side! I think the monopoly is a bad idea and even like your scouting ideas from what I have read about them.

 

"What kind of libertarianism is that? I subscribe to the "Free Markets, Free Minds" variety in which those who are opposed to the DRP (free minds) have the right to join a competing Scouting association (free market) without the current government-imposed religious regulation of the Scouting industry."

 

I said I agree rival scouting movements should be allowed. It is also libertarian however to allow private groups like the BSA to set values like the DRP.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I mean it's one thing to label someone a crackpot, and then another one a nut, but to accuse someone of being Michael Moore, ::shudder:: well then, can we argue points of view and not what we think of each other before I just call you all "Mr. Poopy pants"?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)