Statement of Boy Scouts of America: Court Rules Boy Scout Jamboree to Go Forward

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok, Ed and Merlyn, I think you have worn out your arguments on this thread. If you have anything new fine, if you are going to continue to fight about whether or not its proper to have a School sponsor a unit, do it offline.

[evmori]

What's your opinion on this OGE? How about sharing with the rest of us?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry Ed, I have expounded my view on this topic multiple times, it's time for fresh thoughts something you, I and Merlyn don't have on this topic.

[Hunt]

"And three judges of the 7th circuit are not the same as the supreme court, so they can hardly preview what the supreme court "would" do."

 

So maybe the plaintiffs will roll the dice. If they do, they shouldn't complain if the current Supreme Court does some wide-ranging thinking on just how beneficial Scouting is to various government operations, and just how non-sectarian BSA is, etc. Be careful what you ask for.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The only court opinions I know about that have addressed the BSA's status have concluded that it's a religious organization, not a non-sectarian organization.

[Hunt]

Well, it's a non-sectarian religious organization. But my point is: What will Justice Scalia say it is?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The only way to find out is to bring supreme court cases.

[evmori]

A private youth organization.

 

I would bet this in one case those cases the SCOTUS will let the lower court ruling stand.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

I have purposefully sat this one out until now.

 

You simply do not understand what the deal is.

 

Let's review:

BSA is a private group, BSA can decide who joins, who doesn't.

Schools can have clubs like Fellowship of Christian Athletes, Gay, BI Straight Homo alliance groups, chess club, glee club, band, baseball teams, Spanish club, German club, etc. It now seems the only club schools can't have is BSA units.

 

If a school has a chess club, I don't think I would be welcome if I don't play chess. What about the geek who like Yu-gi-oh? why can't he join the chess club, chess players are geeks, right? He can't join if he doesn't play chess.

 

Let's use the example of a Tall Ballroom Dancers club. If the club sets membership requirements as being 6 feet tall or taller and a ballroom dancer, I can't join (no matter how much I protest) because I'm 5'9" and I only dance to country music, not ballroom.

 

Your arguement fails - miserably. You don't have standing.

Your rights are not being violated.

 

If I had to bet, I would bet that you are an attorney. so, counsellor, take your case to the SCOTUS and when it upholds a lower court, we'll say "We told you so".

 

[scoutldr]

   Also lurking on this thread, amazed at the seeming blindness to the obvious. Gonzo, there's a BIG difference between "not making one feel welcome" and having a written exclusionary policy. I dare say that NONE of the school clubs mentioned have such a written policy. For example, we have a club in our area called CHROME. It is designed to get minorities and females interested in math and engineering.

From their web site: "The goals for all Elementary School CHROME Clubs are: To provide a support system for underrepresented minority and female students that encourages their natural ability to excel in science and mathematics;

To provide enhancing experiences for students, showing what jobs are performed by engineers, scientists, and mathematicians;

To provide role models for students;

To provide career education information;

To provide opportunities for students to develop speaking and writing skills;

To provide stimulating and fun mathematics and science activities that enhance classroom instruction; and

To provide a vehicle for students to share their interest in mathematics and science."

AND, the meaningless disclaimer which makes it all legal: "While CHROME is an organization designed to benefit underrepresented minorities and females, it is NOT exclusionary; any student who is interested in a career in science, mathematics, engineering, or technology, and who wishes to join, may do so." This is something that the BSA has steadfastly refused to do, which, I believe will lead to its eventual demise, except maybe as an LDS program. Open discrimination is no longer socially acceptable in the US, just as it is no longer acceptable to have separate "white troops" and "black troops", which I remember from my youth. If the BSA doesn't become relevant to the times, they will go the way of the Dodo bird. We can be ethical and moral without being discriminatory. As my Lutheran Pastor was fond of saying...the Church (BSA?) is a hospital for sinners...not a country club for Saints.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1, you're the one who doesn't understand the difference between a school-sponsored group and an outside group. Fellowship of Christian Athletes is an evangelical group, and public schools cannot be in the business of trying to convert its students to Christianity; it is not a school-run group, and any school that has FCA would likewise be required to allow a similar Jewish, Muslim, atheist, etc. group.

 

But when a public school charters a cub scout pack, the school is in charge of excluding students on religious grounds. Public schools can't do this.

 

By the way, even the national BSA isn't trying to fight this one:

http://www.scouting.org/relationships/34196/01.html

...

Note: Public schools and government organizations do not serve as chartered organizations

...

[Hunt]

"BSA is a private group, BSA can decide who joins, who doesn't.

Schools can have clubs like Fellowship of Christian Athletes, Gay, BI Straight Homo alliance groups, chess club, glee club, band, baseball teams, Spanish club, German club, etc. It now seems the only club schools can't have is BSA units."

 

I wish you guys would stop arguing with Merlyn about something he's actually right about. A public school simply cannot sponsor an organization that discriminates in its membership based on religious belief. It can, however, ALLOW such a group to meet on school grounds, and it MUST do so if it allows other groups to meet there. Thus, for example, the school could not sponsor a Fellowship of Christian Athletes group, particularly if it restricted membership to Christians, but it could allow that group to meet on campus. Please understand the distinction: BSA units are OWNED by their chartering organization. A public school cannot own a group that discriminates on religious grounds. You also cannot compare religious discrimination with other kinds of membership restrictions ("tallness" is a silly one, but schools really do have groups that discriminate on the basis of talent, or gender), because religion is a special category recognized in the Constitution. The Establishment Clause applies to state (and local governments), and well-established legal precedent indicates that the federal courts, including the Supreme Court, would rule that public schools cannot sponsor organizations that discriminate on the basis of religion. This is why BSA decided to move units from school COs--they realized that it was highly likely that they would lose the case if it went to the Supreme Court. In such a case, there would be standing on the part of an atheist boy who wanted to join (although perhaps not for a mere taxpayer). BSA wisely decided not to spend a lot of money on a case it would probably lose, when it could move to new COs without much real disruptions to units--most of which continue to meet in the same schools, just with different COs. To bring this back on topic, the Jamboree opponents will likely make the same decision, and choose not to appeal, when the likelihood is that they would lose on appeal and perhaps even create a worse precedent for their point of view.

[packsaddle]

Somehow I too have managed to avoid this but now I see an opportunity for mischief. So....what the hell,...

I was a member of a chess club. As I remember, we were such a bunch of lonely, pathetic losers that we encouraged everyone to join even if they didn't CARE about chess, much less know how to play. It was largely the same, as I remember, for photography club. Sorry, I know it was ugly...but it had to be revealed.

 

But the most exclusionary barrier I ever saw broken was 'Homecoming Queen' elected by numerous high schools and colleges around the country. One of my old buddies was actually the first male 'Homecoming Queen' for his college. I was sooooooo proud. And now...another male homecoming queen causes us all to merely snooze some more. Gosh, I wonder if he was a gay atheist homecoming queen?

 

It is reputed that when Christine Jorgenson's mother was asked about her concerns for her transexual son's marriage to a black man in the South, she replied that she was more concerned that he (she) had married a Baptist. I sure hope that is a true story.

 

Scoutldr, I would not describe that disclaimer as meaningless. It actually is a very powerful statement that makes a LOT of difference.

[scoutldr]

If they really meant it (the disclaimer), then the previous statement should read, "The goals for all Elementary School CHROME Clubs are: To provide a support system for ALL students that encourages their natural ability to excel in science and mathematics;"

 

How welcoming would it feel, if BSA said, "we really want God-fearing heterosexuals to join, but if gay atheists insist on showing up, we can't stop them"

 

[packsaddle]

Scoutldr, I see your point. I guess I view it from the vantage of a person who, according to my wife and a few others, is an insensitive clod. And, as much as I hate to admit it, they're probably right.

 

An outright exclusion is more of a problem to me. It would be great if BSA was friendly to all people but failing that, I think grudging acceptance, though not ideal, is preferable to absolute exclusion.