Statement of Boy Scouts of America: Court Rules Boy Scout Jamboree to Go Forward

[Hunt]

"Yes Hunt, YOUR money will be wasted on court costs; I note you aren't concerned about MY money being spent on an organization that excludes atheists, being paid for by all taxpayers, including atheists. I doubt all the litigation would exceed what the DoD spends on one jamboree."

 

I'm not concerned about it because I feel confident that the courts will rule that your money is being well spent for purposes that benefit the military in its training and recruitment. While you may not like that (just as I don't like some of the things that the government spends my money on), I think it's different from throwing away money defending a futile appeal, pursued by people who can't accept that they've lost.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hunt, I've seen you and other people mischaracterize the ACLU as acting that they are getting revenge because they "lost" the Dale case, but I've never seen you nor anyone else suggest why the ACLU should ignore the issues that are raised by the BSA being a private, discriminatory, religious organization considering all the government entanglement with this supposedly private club. You were not at all concerned that the BSA's largest unit sponsor (public schools) could no way legally charter ANY units of a private, discriminatory religious club, yet you were quick enough to criticize efforts to simply have public schools obey the law. All of this is fallout from the Dale decision.

[evmori]

The only one concerned about public schools chartering BSA units is you, Merlyn. What about the branches of the military hiring Chaplin's? Or Congress opening sessions with prayer? Or having to swear on a Bible in a court room? Or public schools sponsoring groups similar to the BSA?

 

Ah but then again, the ACLU has never lost a high profile case to any of those. Only the BSA. And it looks like they could be on the verge of losing more! Maybe they will have to find someone else to pick on.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, I'm not the only one concerned about public schools violating the rights of atheists, but I am one of the few people who actually did something about it.

 

And I know you cannot learn things, because I've told you many of these same things before:

1) The military doesn't hire Chaplins unless they want baggy-pants silent comedians

2) Military chaplains have to serve ALL soldiers, not just the ones whose religious views they approve of

3) There is never a requirement to swear on a bible in US law

4) Public schools can't sponsor clubs that have religious requirements for membership, and I've never seen you even attempt to name an example (apart from BSA units, of course)

5) attendance at congressional or other legislative prayers are never mandatory, although in the few cases I know about where a legislator walked out, it was always a Christian protesting some prayer given by a non-Christian

[evmori]

Merlyn,

 

What atheist rights are being violated? Do atheists have different rights than I do?

 

1) The military doesn't hire Chaplin's unless they want baggy-pants silent comedians

 

Yes they do.

 

2) Military chaplains have to serve ALL soldiers, not just the ones whose religious views they approve of

 

Thought the military didn't hire Chaplin's?

How does a military Chaplin serve an atheist?

 

3) There is never a requirement to swear on a bible in US law

 

Yes I know but some judges require it

 

4) Public schools can't sponsor clubs that have religious requirements for membership, and I've never seen you even attempt to name an example (apart from BSA units, of course)

 

Doesn't have to be religious. Could be for unwed mothers or chess geeks only. BSA units are not religious clubs.

 

5) attendance at congressional or other legislative prayers are never mandatory, although in the few cases I know about where a legislator walked out, it was always a Christian protesting some prayer given by a non-Christian

 

Never said attendance was mandatory. And being a member of the BSA isn't a requirement for anything. If you don't like it don't join but no one is forcing you to do anything.

 

I learn fine, Merlyn. That line is really getting old. You need some need material. Maybe you Firesign cohorts can help you out.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"Hunt, I've seen you and other people mischaracterize the ACLU as acting that they are getting revenge because they "lost" the Dale case, but I've never seen you nor anyone else suggest why the ACLU should ignore the issues that are raised by the BSA being a private, discriminatory, religious organization considering all the government entanglement with this supposedly private club. You were not at all concerned that the BSA's largest unit sponsor (public schools) could no way legally charter ANY units of a private, discriminatory religious club, yet you were quick enough to criticize efforts to simply have public schools obey the law. All of this is fallout from the Dale decision."

 

Merlyn, I know how you dislike it when you think anyone has mischaracterized your position about anything (you've accused both me and Ed of "lying" when you thought we had done so), so I'll thank you not to mischaracterize my position. I have repeatedly stated that schools may not sponsor scouting units because of BSA's membership requirement. However, I will interpret your mischaracterization of my views as a mistake and not as a deliberate falsehood.

But you miss my point. My point is that the situation with the Jamboree is different from the situation with the schools. The Seventh Circuit gave a clear preview of what the current Supreme Court would rule both in respect to standing and on the merits of the challenge to the DOD's involvement with the Jamboree: (1) the challengers have no standing and (2) even if they did, there is enough value to military recruitment and training to justify the expenditures EVEN IF they also benefit a religious organization. As I said, you may not like this government expenditure of your tax money, but according to the Seventh Circuit, it is legal--and I predict that the Supreme Court will rule the same way, if anyone chooses to waste resources in pursuing an appeal. Really now, with the current makeup of the Supreme Court, are you SURE you want them to get an opportunity to opine on how far government entities may go to support Scouting?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

What atheist rights are being violated?

 

One of your own examples:

3) There is never a requirement to swear on a bible in US law

Yes I know but some judges require it

 

Right there Ed. An atheist's rights are being violated if a judge tries to require that they swear on a bible.

 

For chaplains, I've explained that before; you just can't learn.

Same for scouts having religious membership requirements and how public schools can't do so.

 

Hunt writes:

I'll thank you not to mischaracterize my position.

I didn't say you thought it was legal; I said you were not at all concerned about it. Your past statements show no concern about public schools discriminating against atheist students by chartering BSA units.

 

And three judges of the 7th circuit are not the same as the supreme court, so they can hardly preview what the supreme court "would" do.

[evmori]

I guess I gotta spell it out for ya, Merlyn. How is the BSA violating an atheists rights? And the other question I asked you missed was Are atheists rights different from my rights (I'm not an atheist)?

 

you just can't learn! you just can't learn!

 

Would someone please get Merlyn some new material! He seems to be incapable of original ideas.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

You really can't learn, Ed. Sorry if you're bored by my repetition, but when you keep demonstrating that you can't learn, I'll keep pointing it out.

 

I've answered your questions before; if you could learn, you wouldn't keep asking the same ones.

 

I've told you before that public schools violate the rights of atheists by sponsoring no-atheists clubs.

 

I've told you before that atheists have the same rights as you.

 

You can't learn things. You've managed to learn that I keep telling you that "you can't learn things", but you have yet to learn things I've stated previously, like the fact that atheists have the same rights as you, and that this includes not being discriminated against by public schools.

[evmori]

I've told you before that public schools violate the rights of atheists by sponsoring no-atheists clubs.

 

How does that violate your rights? Do you have the right to be a member of every club a school sponsors? No you don't. Neither do I. My rights would not be violated if an atheist only club was sponsored by a public school. Why? Because I don't have to join! And according to you, Merlyn, we have the same rights.

 

WANTED - post writer for Merlyn. New material required.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, a public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion; doing so is a violation of the student's civil rights. Running a club that excludes people on the basis of religion is doing exactly that.

[evmori]

Double Post! Sorry!(This message has been edited by evmori)

[evmori]

Are students being forced to join BSA units sponsored by public schools? No they aren't! No violation of anything going on.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, public schools can't run "no atheists" clubs any more than they can run "no Jews" clubs. It doesn't matter if joining is voluntary, because public schools can't refuse membership based on religion. But you can't learn this.

[evmori]

There it is again!

 

Learning isn't the issue. The issue is violation of rights. And since no one is required to join any club a public school sponsors there is no violation of anyones rights!

 

Maybe it's not me who can't learn!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10