"Rule of 25" and Religious Emblems

[CalicoPenn]

National and the Religious Relationship Committee of the BSA doesn't recognize it? Fine - and who cares. If I had a boy in my unit who earned the Hart and Crescent, I would go buy the religious award knot, and present it to him at the next Court of Honor. The heck with the politics of National - recongnize the Scout for his accomplishment.

 

Calico

[packsaddle]

SSScout, I suspect that if BSA recognized the Buddhist award prior to the rule change, they were probably 'grandfathered' in along with the probably-less-than-25 Zoroastrian units.

 

Sadly, just when I'm getting in the mood to try to give the top of the organization another chance in my mind, the ring of truth to Merlyn's rendition of all this just puts a cloud over it all again.

 

Calico, not to make you feel nervous, but I agree with you. "...and although Linda Wortheimer rolls her eyes when I say it, this is NPR."

[CalicoPenn]

Packsaddle,

 

I won't be nervous just as long as you don't drive like my brother.

 

CP

[SSScout]

I don't know, never heard of any, but if the Jehovahs Witnesses wanted BSA recognition, (I think they have their own Sortascout organization) even tho they are a very large, well recognized religion, they would be REQUIRED to sponsor at least 25 BSA units? Hypotheticaly, a JW boy might join a BSA Pack/Troop/Crew/Ship and want to earn his faiths award, but since the JWs don't sponsor ANY BSA units, he could not earn a BSA sanctioned award?

 

I got that right?

[ASM915]

DanK, thanks for links. I agree with Trevorum. They are excellent and more in-tune with Scouting's outdoor ethics. Quite an interesting read.

 

"RULES OF 25". The far right can't hold inquisitions anymore, so now they purposefully block their foes with political BS (doesn't stand for Boy Scout).

Let the majorities be represented at the table, and feel important if they must, but don't prevent the progress of the minority.

 

Allow all religions to present their Religious Awards to their scouts, no exceptions.

 

CoG requirements look fine. Maybe if more religions held such esteem for the Earth as yours does, maybe we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today.

Different religions, different prophets. All aim for the same results, except the radicals.

 

I think the camporee/jamboree idea is good and would be beneficial toward tolerance.

 

DanK, What's your take on "A MODEST PROPOSAL"? .

And you never got back to me on "Marinated or Barbecued".

 

[DanKroh]

ASM915, you'll have to refresh my memory on what the modest proprosal was.

 

As far as marinated or barbequed, depends on your location. Definitely marinated in the north, but BBQ in the south is the way to go.

[ASM915]

DanK,

"A MODEST PROPOSAL" written by Swift back in the 1700's somewhere.

Quite satirical for his times. It's one of my 20y/o's favorites.

did you get my PM?

[SSScout]

"!! Donner! Party of fifty! This way please!"

 

And 'A Modest Proposal' by JSwift is related to the 'Rule of 25' because???

 

Some of BSA regimen gets, as Alice said,"curiouser and curiouser".

 

Is the goal to encourage the boy in his famiy's and his chosen faith or what exactly?

[Lisabob]

If I recall correctly Swift's "modest proposal" has to do with eating babies in Ireland because, after all, there are too many of them and besides it'll ease the burden on their families. The idea of a modest proposal is sometimes used to suggest something (equally) absurd in order to highlight a much larger problem, like alleviating mass starvation and extreme poverty by eating babies for example.

 

Are you suggesting that the "Rule of 25" is a modest proposal of sorts? I'm not sure I see your connection to Swift either. It's late so forgive me if I'm missing the obvious here.

 

One thing I haven't seen yet on this forum is an explanation (other than the cynical one) for why this "Rule of 25" is in place to start with. Anyone out there who can defend this policy?

[ASM915]

Sorry SSS& Lisa just a private Pagan joke from a RC to a Wiccan friend started in another Religious Thread about favorite cousine.

 

Yes that is the goal. The problem is that because the Earth-Based Religions don't necessarily have a regular gathering place ie. temple, that can act as a CO, it makes it very hard to come up with the 25 CO's nationally that National Council has mandated for a religion to offer up a Nationally sanctioned Religious Award.

 

Dan. I was thinking,(DANGER! DANGER!) Native Americans being truly Earth-Based, granted a lot of converts, with Tribal Gov's acting as CO's and their religious spirituality recognized by Big Brother, I wonder if there is enough influence among the Shamans to circumvent the "RULE OF 25"?

 

Has the CoG, being Earth-Based ever had any dealings with the NA's? I feel that the CoG requirements wouldn't be to far fetch, with a few minor changes as allowed per the document, and would fit well with the NA Spirituality. If the Covenant's can't pull together 25 CO's, could there be opportunity to form relations with Tribal Organizations that can or do function as CO's to promote the award? Maybe this is way off the wall, but leave no stone unturned (unless your a LNT fanatic. I can joke, I'm a trainer).(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[DanKroh]

ASM915, gotta make this quick, as I have a meeting in 5 minutes.

 

Yep, got your PM, sent reply, thanks.

 

"Has the CoG, being Earth-Based ever had any dealings with the NA's?"

 

I know that on some of the Pagan forums I participate on, there are NAs who identify as Pagan. But CoG is pretty much a Wiccan organization, and even as such, is still not acknowledged by more traditional Wiccan groups, because they don't have a "lineage". You would not believe how political Pagan groups can be!

 

In short, I've never heard of it happening, but doesn't mean it couldn't. But not all Pagan religions are Earth-based, and there are a lot of small religions that fall under the Pagan umbrella.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

ASM915, the CoG already tried to charter some scout units - the national BSA refuses to charter any units to them. That way Wiccans can never get an officially recognized religious award, which is apparently the goal.

[epalmer84]

First, some pedantic nitpicking:

*The Programs of Religious Activities for Youth is abbreviated as P.R.A.Y.

*The BSA preferred term is American Indian.

See http://www.scouting.org/identity/los/index.html

Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy for a good discussion on naming.

---

 

Merlyn: I would be interested in any information you might have on specific Wiccan groups such as CoG that were denied a charter.

 

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While the "rule of 25" is the big part of this issue, the Religious Relationships Committee actually created five rules in 1993:

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa-re-policy.html

 

Thus, any change to an existing program must now be approved by the BSA.

 

To my knowledge, the BSA only recognizes emblems that are administered by P.R.A.Y., but they do not recognize all of the emblems that are administered by P.R.A.Y. The other agencies that use P.R.A.Y (Girl Scouts, Camp Fire USA and American Heritage Girls) have different lists of recognized emblems. For example, AHG only recognizes Protestant emblems.

http://praypub.org/recognitions/selectagency.htm

 

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For those who may not be up on the Unitarian Universalist issues, here is an article with details:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_emblems_programs

 

Ed

 

 

 

 

 

[TheScout]

It would be a lot easier and probably more consistent with the heritage of our country if the BSA only recognized Judeo-Christian Emblems and COs.

[DanKroh]

edpalmer: Interesting that the BSA prefers American Indian. Personally, I tend to use whatever terminology those that self-identify as belong to that group prefer. Since most of the Pagans I know who self-identify as Native American prefer that term, that is what I tend to use. I doubt they honestly care what the BSA prefers to call them.

 

TheScout: Yes, please, lets make things easier for the Judeo-Christians, by all means. If anyone else wants to earn an emblem of their faith and wear it on the uniform, too bad for them. Oh, sorry, is my cynicism showing?

 

It has become painfully obvious from this thread and several other related ones that have been active lately that the BSA forces a thin veneer of "tolerance" onto the prejudices and ignorance of some of its members in the name of "reverence" and "respect for others" without ever addressing the underlying ignorance and prejudices. Unfortunately, when that happens, that veneer is going to crack, and the ugliness beneath is going to seep out.

 

National talks about acceptance of all religions, but they take obvious strides to exclude certain religions from enjoying the perks (i.e. religious emblems, being COs, being part of the groups that makes decisions). Is it any wonder that such mixed messages filter down to the leaders and membership, who then think that it is ok express prejudice towards the members of minority religions? After all, tolerance doesn't mean we actually have to *accept* them, right?