Yp or not YP that is the question

[Beavah]

So if I'm understanding correctly (now), the question for the thread is "What kind of things would we choose to intervene in / report, and how would we intervene/report, when we were worried about a kid?" Ekmiranda's quote that started the thread was referring to running away and medication holidays - things that were not criminal.

 

If we take the example of a boy who is showing up at scouting events with persistent bruising, that's going to land in the "child abuse and neglect" category in all states, so a different set of expectations apply.

 

what was suggested is not consistant with BSA policy according to the YP tape.

 

I think it's important for everyone to understand that training videos, including the YP tape, are not policy documents. They aren't updated frequently enough, and we are not able to produce separate videos for each state to reflect state law and local conditions.

 

Instead, properly done YPT is supposed to provide participants with written and verbal information that informs them on those important issues for their area. Here in our state and in most others, when reporting suspected child abuse by parents, scouters are advised to call child protective services, and not the SE. The reason is that calling child protective services (or law enforcement if that's needed) protects the scouter with statutory immunity, while telling the SE (or any other private individual) that you think someone is abusing their kid may expose the scouter to suit for slander.

 

and second mandatory reporters really needs to be defined before advice about it is given. If you are mandated by law to report something means that as a scouter you are mandated by YP policy to follow YP policy in that case.

 

Defining "mandatory reporters" is a good idea. Da way I'm usin' it, "mandatory reporters" is a legal term that refers to those persons who have a legal obligation to report suspicions of abuse or neglect to child protective services." Who is a mandatory reporter varies by state, but in most states it refers to professionals who have close contact with children (teachers, medical professionals, etc.). In some states, everyone is a mandatory reporter. Mandatory reporting applies only to child abuse and neglect, not to any other crimes against children. In most states, only parents or guardians can commit child abuse or neglect. So when we're talkin' about reporting, we're talkin' about reporting a boy's parents to child protection authorities.

 

There's no connection between being a mandatory reporter (a state-specific legal term) and anything in the BSA. It's also worth being clear that the BSA doesn't have anything called "YP policy." It has YP training, to help inform leaders of issues, and help them to be alert to signs of abuse and neglect. Da BSA also has some policies that we associate with YP, like "two deep" and "no one on one", but those don't address suspicions of abuse or neglect. Saying that all information provided in YP training materials is "policy" is not correct.

 

 

I think the real question is always "how do I help the child?" Where or when I learned of something isn't particularly relevant.

 

So in the example of the boy with persistent bruising, as a professionally trained mandatory reporter in my state, I would call child protective services. I would also let my CO and SE know that I had done so about "a boy" (no names) in the unit, just as a matter of courtesy. If I were an average scouter (not a mandatory reporter in my state), I would also call child protective services, but if I was really uncertain, I'd solicit the advice of a trained professional (the SE, the CO, or someone else), sharing only the observed facts, and let them handle the follow-up.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[LongHaul]

>>Ekmiranda's quote that started the thread was referring to running away and medication holidays - things that were not criminal.<< In your opinion which is indeed the topic of this thread. Withholding medication on a regular basis can be viewed as reasonable suspicion that this childs need are possibly being neglected.

>>If we take the example of a boy who is showing up at scouting events with persistent bruising, that's going to land in the "child abuse and neglect" category in all states, so a different set of expectations apply.<< What example? I dont find, when I read back on previous posts and example referring to a boy showing up with persistent bruising.

 >>I think it's important for everyone to understand that training videos, including the YP tape, are not policy documents. They aren't updated frequently enough, and we are not able to produce separate videos for each state to reflect state law and local conditions. Instead, properly done YPT is supposed to provide participants with written and verbal information that informs them on those important issues for their area. Here in our state and in most others, when reporting suspected child abuse by parents, scouters are advised to call child protective services, and not the SE. The reason is that calling child protective services (or law enforcement if that's needed) protects the scouter with statutory immunity, while telling the SE (or any other private individual) that you think someone is abusing their kid may expose the scouter to suit for slander.<< Am I to understand that in your opinion the video we are required to watch and the training we are required to take and retake, sometimes yearly, is not supposed to be taken literally and we as Scouters are not required to follow that training?  National puts this tape out and requires us to watch it but doesn't expect us to take it seriously?

LongHaul

[Lisabob]

Maybe this discussion would be assisted by some examples. Here are three. All are real. In the first two, these are situations that happened in a pack that my son was part of.

 

1) A boy's mother approached her son's DL about YP issues. Specifically, mom wants to know if the BSA has any material that could be used to help a boy who is living in a domestic violence situation. From the sound of things it seems as though mom and possibly the boy are being physically abused by the adult male member of the household (dad/boyfriend, I'm not sure which). No obvious bruises and no clear-cut statement to that effect, but not an entirely unreasonable assumption based on behavior and comments made, either.

 

2) A boy's mother is rather open about the "business" she was running from her home, with the boy present. She was allegedly engaging in behavior that is illegal and probably by most judgments, also immoral. While the boy in question wasn't directly involved and may not have known that these things were even happening, he was in the house.

 

3) A boy's parent openly acknowledges that they have had their license revoked for various infractions of a serious nature, but drives anyway, including driving the boy around (to cub scouts and elsewhere) in a car that hasn't been registered, isn't insured, may have fake plates, and almost certainly wouldn't pass state safety/inspection standards.

 

I'd be interested to know how people would respond to these in the context of what we're taught about YPT.

[Beavah]

Withholding medication on a regular basis can be viewed as reasonable suspicion that this childs need are possibly being neglected.

 

Yah, so this is an interesting case to discuss. Joe is an ADHD kid in your troop, eh? Yeh know from other boys and from Joe that he takes Concerta every day for school. But on your last weekend campout, the parents sent no meds along, and now they haven't even listed his medication on the summer camp health form. Joe tells you "Oh, my parents don't have me take medications on weekends or in the summer."

 

Do you

 

1) Call Child Protective Services to report suspicion of abuse & neglect?

2) Call your Scout Executive to report suspicion of neglect?

3) Call the parents and find out what's up?

 

I vote for (3). If it seems appropriate and the parents are OK with it, I might bring along a child psychologist when talking to them, just to offer some expertise and perspective. If I'm aware of family financial issues that might be affecting whether they can afford Joe's medication, I would steer them toward agencies that can help with that. So in short, I would try to be supportive of the family by providing resources, but I would not, at least at first blush, consider this neglect.

 

-----

 

All training is meant to be helpful and informative, and good folks do their best to make it as useful as it can be given the limits of time and media. The purpose of training is to build deeper understanding, and provide access to more resources, so that we can do our best for kids.

 

Is every sentence in every video or booklet to be taken as literal policy? No. Is it proper to say a region, council, or unit is "wrong" because they may do things differently to achieve the same ends? No. It's also probably not courteous or helpful, even if we do think they could handle it better. Is training worth attending and listening to? Yes, if it's done well, and taught by people who are truly knowledgeable in an area.

 

 

[LongHaul]

Lisabob,

I PM'ed you let me know if you get it or not.

LongHaul

[Aquila calva]

"I might bring along a child psychologist when talking to them, just to offer some expertise and perspective."

 

Beavah, You apparently have a great network of friends. Wish I was so fortunate!

[Lisabob]

LongHaul,

 

Nope, didn't get it. Go ahead and email me if you want: cubleadertraining@yahoo.com

[scoutldr]

Sorry, Beav. If I showed up at a scout's home with a shrink in tow wanting to discuss their kid's medical conditions, I would probably be escorted off the property...and with good reason.

 

I think the ONLY acceptable course of action for a scouter is to discuss the scout's BEHAVIOR during activities, without regard to medication regimens. Disruptive behavior is never acceptable, with or without medication. I expect scouts to meet standards of behavior, as outlined in the Scout Oath and Law. It's up to the parent, scout and their physician to decide how to get there. If there is a doctor's order for medication, I will see that he gets it on schedule. If not, it's a behavior/discipline issue.

[Eamonn]

Lisabob

Here is what I would do.

Case one. - I'd call the Child Abuse Hotline.

Cases Two and Three - Call the police.

 

I would do this a Eamonn the person who lives in the area not as Eamonn the Scouter.

As Eamonn the Scouter I would give the SE a call and voice my concerns that this woman should never be allowed to transport Scouts. I'd also give the COR a call.

As I posted in another thread we have had to remove a Scout for fondling another Scout.

Our DE tried to make this into a gay thing?

My argument was that it was a case of inappropriate behavior. I didn't care if he had done it to a girl or a girl had done it to him. It just wasn't acceptable.

Of course I kept the SE informed and in the picture, in keeping with the YP-Guidelines.

As the Lad was also a member of a Boy Scout Troop I had to inform the CC of the Troop.

My feelings were /are that the SE should have revoked the membership of this Lad. In fact I'm upset that he hasn't and his stand is that this is a unit problem.

This Lad has some real problems, I feel he needs help. His parents are still upset at me? The BSA? The other Lad??? Maybe there is some sort of shame attached in admitting that he has a problem.

While everyone hates to hear "This is not my job" I think I have done all I have to do. He is no longer a member of the Ship or the Troop and as such does not pose a threat to any of the youth members.

I think I would inform the adults in any other unit he might try to join.

He is only a project away from receiving (Not earning.) Eagle Scout. Should he join another unit and meet the requirements there?? I have asked that I be invited to sit on the BOR (We have District BOR's) and it just would never happen.

I am very disappointed that a Scout Executive is unwilling to step up to the plate on something that clearly is a Scouting matter.

I have to wonder if this is the case in a matter like this why would he act in any matter that wasn't clearly a Scouting matter.

I just started a thread on "On Line Training" I strongly recommend that everyone (yes everyone takes or re-takes the training) Especially anyone who is presenting the Training's. A lot of times when we were given the wrong information to start with we just repeat it and in time we start to believe that it's there and that it's true.

Of course this isn't done with any harm or ill-will intended it just happens.

Very often at real live training's some one will come up with some goofy scenario!! Where maybe the correct answer is "I've never had to deal with that and maybe you should phone the Council Service Center to find out who has the correct answer" Sure it doesn't make the presenter look wise and wonderful!! But it sure beats furnishing bad, flawed or wrong information.

Eamonn.

 

[ScoutNut]

The online YPT is very good & is periodically updated. It does a credible job of explaining what to look for & who to tell & when to tell. It also has a link to download your specific state's reporting requirements & your state & council contact info.

 

http://olc.scouting.org/

 

 

You can also go back & view it at any time.

 

In your scenario with the bruises, the BSA training suggests to keep an eye on the child. If the bruises are noticed on different occasions, are different colors, suggesting they occurred at different times, & when asked about them the child is evasive and/or inconsistent, BSA recommends telling BOTH your SE AND your states Child Protective Services because you do not know if the abuse happened in or out of Scouting.

 

As for "medication holidays", unless the medication is for a health/life threatening condition (examples given by BSA include chronic, out-of-control asthma or a festering wound) it is not considered neglect. Taking weekends off ADHD meds, while aggravating to the people who have to deal with the child, is not USUALLY something that threatens the overall health or life of the child.

 

Youth Protection is a fairly well know thing even outside of Scouting. All people who have contact with children in programs under the Catholic Church now must go thru background checks & YP training. Many other organizations dealing with children do this also. It is no longer simply a BSA thing.

 

 

[Beavah]

Beavah, You apparently have a great network of friends. Wish I was so fortunate!

 

Yah, friends in high and low places . Honestly, though, I think it's like MB counselors. If a boy, family, or unit needs a resource, I go out and find it for 'em. That's the real job of us district and council types. Scoutldr's right, though, yeh have to be low-key, meet on neutral ground, and be like Grandpa Beavah and his buddy sharin' a cup o'Joe, not like the guy bringin' the shrink to tell 'em what's wrong with their kid.

 

Lisa'bob, your examples are really tough ones. Like all real-world examples, they're complex, and it really helps to know the players. I'd begin in each case by bein' non-judgmental but alert, and gather more information. But here are my loose thoughts.

 

1.A boy's mother approached her son's DL about YP issues. Specifically, mom wants to know if the BSA has any material that could be used to help a boy who is living in a domestic violence situation...

It's unclear whether the woman is asking for help for her son, or some other boy she knows. I would start a conversation, listen carefully, and ask her directly - are you or your son victims of violence? Do you feel one or both of you are in danger?

 

Then I'd get her to the appropriate help. If there's imminent danger, straight to law enforcement and child services. If she's credible and it's about her son but there isn't an immediate threat, I'd be on the phone to child services with her. If it's about another boy she knows, I'd encourage her to call in the report to child services, and help her with that. I'd notify the CO and SE only if there were a connection or possible impact on Scouting (like a custody issue they need to be aware of).

 

2. A boy's mother is rather open about the "business" she was running from her home, with the boy present. She was allegedly engaging in behavior that is illegal and probably by most judgments, also immoral...

 

Yah, we've had a dad in our district arrested for runnin' brothels. This kind of stuff goes on, eh? For single moms, sometimes it's the best way they know to support a family.

 

I think yeh have to consider what's in the best interest of the boy. If mom is otherwise loving and supportive, and her activity doesn't pose a direct risk to the child, is it really better to lose him to scouting in the foster care system? Yeh haven't actually seen her hooking, eh? Would you report a dad who is rather open about another crime, like cheatin' on his taxes?

 

Tough call. I'd advise a scouter to have a "behind doors" conversation with the CO, especially if the CO is a church or school. They might already be in the know, and certainly have greater resources to help out.

 

3)A boy's parent openly acknowledges that they have had their license revoked for various infractions of a serious nature, but drives anyway, including driving the boy around...

 

Yah, reality is almost everyone who has their license suspended still drives, eh? Otherwise, they'd be unemployed and impoverished in many cases. One of the faults of the system that's understood well by the working poor, but not by us upper-middle-class types. Does it help the boy to have his parents slapped with another large fine and be sent to county jail on weekends?

 

A big question here is whether yeh think dad drives drunk with the boy in the car. In that case, pick up the phone and call child services.

 

Otherwise, I think a dad who's doin' his best to get his boy to Scoutin' is really tryin' to do his best, eh? I'd quietly see what I could do to help. Some pro-bono legal assist to get his license restored (yeh gotta remember guys who can afford real lawyers almost never lose their license). Perhaps a free tuneup for the old jalopy to make sure the important things like brakes work, and no exhaust is gettin' inside. Maybe along the way a visit to the house, and then droppin' a note to the "Christmas in April" folks.

 

You know... on my honor I will do my best to help other people at all times.

 

Beavah

 

[Ekmiranda]

 

Hi All,

First my quote did not say anything about Med Holidays it was taken from a post that I talked about running away.

 

EkmirandaJunior Forum MemberRegistered: 2/16/2007Location: HolbrookPosts: 34View member's profileSend Private Message RE: Missing Scout in NC - Found!Posted: Thursday, 3/22/2007: 11:41:15 AM quality ScoutNut, OK now we are starting to hear more and more. I knew about the bribe did not know that he was talking to the other scouts about not wanting to be there. Maybe if this child has a history of just getting up and running away the family as a whole should be looked at. The deep underlying issues could possible be there and not the troop. This sounds like this boys picture is going to find it's way on to a milk carton in the future. How many times has this happened and how many talks has the father had. Or like I said how is the boys home life is he running away for a reason. This could also be a cry for help but no one is hearing it!!!!! Spun Thread: Yp or not YP that is the question

 

YP is a very touchy subject; it is quite ambiguous and is very subjective to each of the individuals eyes. Using bruises is a very obvious case. The tougher and more underlying issue is the mental abuse.

 

I think as a father first and a Scouter second we all see things in a different light and what might seem abusive to one might not be abusive to the next. If a child is constantly running away I feel that there is an issue there that needs investigating.

 

I have read though all of the posts and all are giving great advice. I feel putting all things aside we need to look at things from a different perspective, and that is from the human beings point of view. Granted we are animals by nature but we are supposed to be civilized and cultured to the point that we all can make a rational judgment call. When we think that a child is being abused, and having made that assumption depending on the extent of the abuse and the knowledge that we have gained from the training (YP) the parent or parents should be given the benefit of the doubt. There are always reasons for things, always a reaction to an action. A meeting should be set up to have a little talk.

 

In a simpler time things were easier and parents were of a mindset of, this is how I raise my child, who are we to question and judge this. Things these days have gotten way to far out of control, you cant discipline your child to harshly or you are this you cant spank or (hit) the child because of this. (When I say hit I do not mean in the face or with any type of object or belt, stick or switch and I do not mean with enough force to truly hurt the child I mean on the butt) Things have gotten to political correct, this country is walking on eggshells when it comes to disciplining a child and that is also the reason that we are having these issues with the children of today.

 

I am by no means say or condoning that it is OK to hit a child or abuse a child. I came from a very abusive household, physical and mental abuse at the extreme end. By the time I was five I truly thought that my name was STUPID and IDIOT. At five years old I had received 6 stitches in the back of my head because my father through me into the back seat of the car because I was complaining that I could not see the parade. I made it though both. From my past experiences the mental abuse is a far worse abuse that could possibly stick with you for the rest of your life. If you have not been affected, or have not been mentally abused to the extent that I have been than you cannot imagine what I am talking about.

 

What I am saying is that we as a nation have taken away the rights of a parent to discipline the child. Just look around and you can see it in the schools at the stores everywhere you look the children of today are in a position where they are doing the abuse to the parent .Why? Because a parents hands are tied. We all know what I am talking about. If a child today gets spanked by the parent or hit or disciplined to harshly in the childs eye all that child needs to say is that he or she is being abused and the whole family is turned upside down. Social services comes in the police the CPA and countless others. I know that I have gotten way of the topic of this discussion and I am sorry for that but I feel this needed to be said.

 

Thanks EKM

 

[LongHaul]

Ekmiranda thanks for bringing us back to the purpose of this thread, which was to discuss your concern and that of ustbeeowl. One of the things that sometimes happens on a forum like this is that we read a post and respond but in the interim someone else posts. Our post then can be interpreted as being in response or in reference to the post immediately preceding it. This happened here and I failed to catch it. Dan replied to my initial post and I responded but in the interim SWScouter posted what I would consider to be the best response to my initial question. That response went unnoticed, at least by me, and things got distracted by personal cross talk and focus on specific issues to the exclusion of the main topic. Ustbeeowl has a genuine concern that video games are becoming an addiction. You have expressed a concern in the missing scout case that this boy may be crying out for help. Whether we believe we should follow the YP guidelines put out by BSA or not should be spun to another thread. Following the BSA guidelines, because no criminal activity is evident or suspected, we are supposed to notify our SE. As you have pointed out we are still human beings, some of us are still parents, we have emotions and concerns for those around us. You know what it is like to be abused and to live in an abusive environment, if you would or if you can please share with us how you feel toward or about those people that knew you were being abused or should have known you were being abused and did nothing.

LongHaul

 

[Ekmiranda]

Dear Scouteer's

I have not forgotten about the request that LongHaul has madeI will reply in a while, I reget to tell you that there has been a death in the family, My wife's Mother. I will get back to you all soon.

 

EKM

[Ekmiranda]

I am sorry that this took so long to reply.

 

I cannot remember when it started. All I know is that it was there and it was quite prevalent to me. If at that early age of 4-5 some one else knew what was going on I did not know it and most certainly it was not stopped. The physical abuse stopped when I was about 13 or 14 after I was able to run away or fight back. The mental abuse continued well until I was 20 to 23. It seemed very odd because I always had what I wanted as a child. I mean the monetary things toys and cloths and what not. At times it almost seemed like the gifts and all the things were as a make up for the pain. But looking back it was not because my sister got the same.

 

My father was the one who was the abusive one not my mother but she never did anything to stop the abuse. (I guess you could say that, that was abuse too not doing anything).

 

Well I dont know if anyone outside of my mother knew anything. My father was a well-liked person throughout the community and the family. All the nephews and nieces loved him. He had a great way of making other kids think that he was the best father in town. As a small child growing up in the 60s you did not talk out of turn or say anything to an adult unless you were spoken to, no less tell someone that the greatest dad in town was hitting you and abusing you. Who would believe you and if someone did, I was too afraid of the beating that I would get after.

 

My Aunts and Uncles, as far as I knew did not know that anything was going on. My sister did not know what was going on. As I was growing up it seemed to me that this was a normal thing and I just had to except it. Now that thats out of the way the question is about feelings. I never thought about feelings because as I said I thought that this was the norm.

 

This is a tuff question, the feelings are hard to describe. As for people that did not know I really had no feelings but I did look at the way their family life was and I did notice that there was a lot more love and compassion in other family than ours. That made me sad and there was a lot conflicting emotions concerning the family life between us internally.

 

As far as the beatings and the mental abuse, well picture yourself as a small puppy and your owner would constantly kick you and smack you, you would always be getting screamed at and constantly called stupid and idiot, and told you dont know what the F--- you are doing and that you are F--king good for nothing except for F--king screwing things up, you are not able to do anything except curl up in a ball and try and survive. There is a point when emotions and feelings leave and survival just takes over and that is all you think about GOD AM I GOING TO LIVE THROUGH THIS.

 

As far as my Mother goes I think that she did nothing because she was afraid that if she spoke up he would leave and she would not be able to live without him. There would be no roof over our heads. But I have trouble with that because there are always places to go I dont think that she was smart enough to know that. I do have harsh feelings toward her still. Because to this day I have not gotten an Im sorry or anything. It is a hard thing to forgive and forget as a child, as an adult I have tried to talk about it but I think that she is living in denial about it and does not want to owe up to the fact. Or even talk about it. That makes things even harder to forgive and forget. I do not have a good emotional tie with my mother.

 

I now have a great family life a wonderful wife and the most beautiful son that a parent could want. I have a 3000 square foot house, two nice cars and everything else that goes with it.

 

I sometimes think if I had a loving family and a happy childhood when I was growing up how different would my life have turned out. I do not regret how my life has turned out I just think about it. I look back and think that if things were different I might not have met my wife, and if that had happened, than the most important thing that has happened to me in my life would never have happened. My son would have never been born and just for that and that alone I would not change one stinking thing.

 

I hope this has answered any questions and has helped.

 

EKM