Yp or not YP that is the question

[LongHaul]

Ekmiranda posted; This could also be a cry for help but no one is hearing it!!!!! In reference to the missing scout incident. In an unrelated thread,ustbeeowl brought up a concern about video game addiction. Where does our responsibility, 1. to the scout and 2. with regard to YP, end? Or should I ask how far does it extend? When we feel in our heart and mind something is just not right is passing the info on to a professional scouter enough? Provided of course that we do not suspect criminal intent or activity?

LongHaul

 

[dan]

What would you tell the professional scouter?

I do not like the way the family is raising their child.

He bribes him to go on campouts.

 

As scouter we should not try to push our thoughts on what we think is the correct way to raise children to the scout parents.

 

 

 

[SWScouter]

Perhaps we shouldn't push our thoughts on how to raise a child, but I do know that here in Arizona, I have a legal obligation to report any suspicion of child abuse to the proper authorities. It is not my responsibility to decide if there really is abuse or not, just to report it. I'm not saying that there is any suspicion of abuse with the scout from NC. Now, if I suspect a scout is being abused, I would let the scout know that I'm a friend and available, I would contact the SE, and I would contact the local authorities. I would not tell anyone else in the troop (what if my suspicions are wrong?) or confront the suspected abuser.

[LongHaul]

I agree but when we are required to take and offer YP protection over and over and are bombarded with warnings about physical, mental, neglect, sexual and ethical abuse how are we to tell the difference. What is the difference between a Medication Holiday and withholding medication prescribed by a doctor? Are we being asked to watch for signs then ignore them?

LongHaul

[Eagledad]

May I suggest that you first talk with the parents. I got in the habit of talking with all parents as I meet them, if time allowed. Sometimes we talked about good things, sometimes it was bad. But I didn't hesitate to describe what was going on and just ask if they saw anything at home.

 

I've been watching these medication discussions and the one thing that frustrated me was the parent not telling me anything, like that fact their son is on some kind of medication. When several of these kinds of situations occurred, I started asking justifying my question with past bad experiences.

 

If after you have talked with the parents you feel there is something else that needs to be done, then go to a professional. I've had to do that too and trust me, it is not fun. Councils way of handling such issues is to first let the unit deal with it, then they will follow picking up the pieces where they fall. I don't disagree with that method, but you can find yourself dealing with a lot more than you bargained for.

 

In 99.9% of the cases, parents are trying to do their best. We need to assume that when we talk with them.

 

Go talk with the parents first.

 

Barry

 

[Beavah]

When we feel in our heart and mind something is just not right is passing the info on to a professional scouter enough? Provided of course that we do not suspect criminal intent or activity?

 

LongHaul, I'm not entirely sure what we're talkin' about.

 

If we don't suspect criminal activity, why would we be passing information on to a professional scouter or anybody else in an official way (and what in the world would/could they do about it?).

 

Non-criminal things might involve a boy showing signs of depression, parents showing signs of poor parenting, that sort of thing? Is that what we're talkin' about?

 

I'd never report that to a BSA professional - they'd have no expertise and no ability to assist. I'd instead talk with the parents, perhaps askin' a friend who does child & family psychology to come along. A good reason to have someone on your troop committee who understands such things professionally, eh? They can be a great resource.

 

I know one troop that works more closely with a CO private school, where they share information back to school counselors, so that can be another option. Introducing parents to other parents who are dealing (perhaps more successfully) with the same kind of issues can also be a big help to the family.

 

[evmori]

I'm not seeing this lost Scout in NC as a youth protection issue. To me it is just poor parenting that the Troop had to deal with.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[2Eagle]

I know it's tough to face and tougher to carry out but I believe in this case I would cut the kid and family loose. I would not put my butt on the line for this kid or accept further resposibility for his actions. You reach a point where the good of the rest of the kids and your own ability to run a safe, efective program has to be considered. Long ago I dropped the idealism that I could fix every problem through Scouting. It is useless to try to change anything in the family as well. You can't fix in an hour a week and one weekend a month what gets screwed up at home the rest of the time.

In my day every boy was in Scouting in the neighborhood...if they weren't or dropped out they were considered weird. Like it or not times have changed and those days are not coming back. As you know, many times now, it is the Boy Scout that is considered weird...until they make Eagle anyway. I have found that the moma's boys don't make good Scouts...cut them loose. The Game Boy/Video Game fanatics don't make good Boy Scouts...cut them loose. The sports fanatics (gotta play every sport year round) don't make good Boy Scouts...cut them loose. You will have some victories. You will get through to some. You will change some...but not all. I want boys who want to be there, who put an effort into Scouting, who like the outdoors, who can develop the mental toughness to endure an active outdoor life, who learn to strive to succeed. Like it or not, and I don't, the fabric of our society has changed. Not every boy will be attracted to Scouting. Not every boy can endure Scouting. Not every boy has the internal fortitude to succeed in Scouting and certainly not every family "gets it" either. I learned long ago in the Army that soldering doesn't fit everyone that signs up...even though they volunteered. You can spend most of your time trying to fix the few, with marginal success, or you can spend most of your time with good to make them better with great success. I choose to put my personal time and effort into those that respond not to those who don't.

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

After reading your post on courtesy and your request for sanctions against those you find rude I have to wonder about some of your other posts. Why would we report non criminal activity to our SE? Have you watched the recent YP Adult Leader video? While I know following rules is not high on your list how is telling those new forum people you are so worried about to disregard what BSA tells them? The first scenario on the tape discusses a boy that reportedly has bruises and refuses to talk with his leader. The tape suggests that this information be passed along to the SE. You consider yourself better educated and equipped to handle these situations than some professional scouter but do you feel those new forum members are equally educated? You will find this post to be a personal attack because it suits you. I am offended by your telling others that your method of handling a possible YP issue is an acceptable response in direct opposition to what BSA says. Its not your responsibility to investigate. Comes right from the tape. If your going to take positions that are directly contrary to BSA policy please do it in a less condescending manner. Many of us bend or disregard the written rule but don't chastize those who follow the rules.

LongHaul

 

[Eamonn]

Who to report what too?

Is at times confusing.

If the abuse has to do with or is somehow connected to Scouts and Scouting?

Sure the SE and the CO are the people to talk with.

If I seen a kid who I thought was being abused at home by someone who wasn't involved in Scouting, I'd look in the phone-book for the numbers of abuse hotlines.

I'm familiar with: Sexual Abuse, Physical Abuse,Neglect and Emotional Abuse - I can't remember ever hearing about ethical abuse ?

Ea.

[LongHaul]

Who is to report what to whom? Pretty much why I started this thread. Ethical abuse is the newest of the group; defined as "harming and individual by convincing him or her to do an act that is against his or her physical, moral, or ethical interests."

If you learn about the abuse or if the signs of a possible abusive situation are brought to your attention during a Scouting event you are supposed to make "Scouting" aware of these facts. "Scouting" locally is one's SE. Whether I agree with this or whether I think "abuse" is being exploited by those who want to "legislate" and "police" our lives is irrelevant. What I do personally and what I am bound to teach during YP Instruction may not always match. But telling someone my way is proper and BSA's way is wrong needs to be done in a manner that offers in depth discussion from both sides. I started this thread to find out what is being taught under the heading of YP.

LongHaul

 

[evmori]

Ethical abuse? Sounds the same as coercion to me.

[LongHaul]

Actually coercion involves the use of force which is not a pre requisite for abuse. I do think that creation of a new class if you will is an attempt to broaden the scope of the abuse umbrella. There are those that want to have the right to come into every home and tell people how to raise and interact with their children. If you hit them its physical abuse, if you talk harsh to them its mental abuse, if you punish them its physiological abuse, if you just let them do what they want its neglect. There should be no doubt that children should be protected against abuse of all kinds but sometimes those definitions become so all encompassing that they defeat the original purpose IMO. The more things that are defined as abusive the less attention people pay to actual abuse, again IMO.

LongHaul

 

[Beavah]

I'm still not sure what we're talkin' about.

 

Bruises on a kid might lead to reasonable suspicion of child abuse by a parent or relative. Child abuse like that is a criminal activity, which should be reported through proper channels, I think we all agree. My recommendation especially to mandatory reporters is to call child protective services (or law enforcement if needed) but not the SE. Calling children's services puts everything necessary into play to protect the child, without exposin' you to a slander suit in the way reporting to the SE can. There's a lot of cases where things are ambiguous, and you're just not sure, and you're not a mandatory reporter. Then go to someone with more training - the SE, a school counselor, or just call CPS and tell 'em what you've seen. Report the facts, not an accusation, and let them decide if they have reasonable suspicion to call CPS.

 

That's consistent with BSA policy, BTW. SE notification is mandatory only for acts committed within Scouting (i.e. where there's a BSA liability component and insurance/risk management needs to be brought in).

 

Beyond child abuse/neglect or assault (which in most states is defined in a way that limits it to physical, not emotional abuse), there's a whole mess of stuff that amounts to poor parenting. Pros who work with kids come up with names to describe some of the stuff - "ethical abuse" and such. Those have no legal meaning, and don't amount to criminal behavior. If someone is teachin' their kid it's OK to swear a lot it's poor parenting, perhaps "ethical abuse" but reportin' it to the SE or the State isn't goin' to accomplish anything.

 

Yah, LongHaul's right in that coining such terms also becomes part of lobbyin' efforts to expand abuse laws, but mostly those haven't gotten much traction.

 

I don't know what you do about "poor parenting" other than try to meet with and provide extra support to the parents. And continue to provide a healthy environment to the boy within' your unit.

 

Beavah

[LongHaul]

I am posting this to the entire group even though I am addressing what was posted by a specific forum member. I titled this thread Yp or not YP that is the question because that is what I wanted to discuss. When does it become a YP issue. YP is not a common term outside of Scouting. Youth Protection is something most people would understand but walking up to a stranger on the street after both of you had witnessed a parent slap a child and asking Is that a YP issue? probably wouldnt get a response from a non scouter. YP was meant to refer to something we as scouters felt required us to follow what we are taught when we have to sit and watch That video. In the first scenario no bruises are seen by the leader, no information of a first hand nature is obtained. Even the alleged bruises are something third hand. The co-leaders son supposedly saw them, it is not made clear that the son actually saw the bruises. The training and the tape instruct leaders to inform the SE. Because it was discovered during a scouting activity it is, again according to the tape to be reported to the SE. The tape goes on to say that the SE will notify the authorities and that the leader should let the SE handle the problem.

 

>>"My recommendation especially to mandatory reporters is to call child protective services (or law enforcement if needed) but not the SE.">"That's consistent with BSA policy, BTW. SE notification is mandatory only for acts committed within Scouting (i.e. where there's a BSA liability component and insurance/risk management needs to be brought in).