religion as a core component of the BSA

[Lisabob]

Yes thank you LongHaul, that's exactly the question I had in mind. If it is part of the core, make it explicit in all programs, as reflected by a rank/advancement requirement. If it isn't really part of the core, stop pretending to the contrary, wasting resources defending it, and drop it. And by the way, if it isn't seriously part of the core (as demonstrated by the absence of any advancement requirements in the boy scout program) and yet we keep playing the rhetoric games insisting that it is, I'd think this would be offensive to people who believe religion IS vitally important to the mission of the BSA.

 

I also take LongHaul's earlier point that adding a religious requirement would appear as bowing to pressure from the religious right and conversely, I suppose dropping the membership requirement would be seen as bowing to those scary pinko commie America-hating ACLU-loving lefties, or something equally silly. So in the end I guess not much will change. But the inconsistency is bugging me!

[DanKroh]

Both the Bear and Webelos requirements read "Earn the religious emblem of your faith". Notice it doesn't say "Earn the BSA-approved religious emblem of your faith"

 

Wicca has a religious emblem, a curriculum developed by a group called Covenant of the Goddess. However, it is not, and probably never will be, BSA-approved. I would not be surprised if other faiths that are not listed on the BSA-approved list also have emblem programs.

 

However, my reading of the requirments is that any religious emblem that has been approved by *your faith*, NOT the BSA, meets the requirment.

 

My son will be earning the UUA Cub award for Bear and the CoG Cub Award for Webelos. My older son, in Boy Scouts, will probably be earning the CoG Boy Scout level award at some point, since he has decided to follow a Pagan path.

[packsaddle]

Dan, good for them! Your post reminded me of something my daughter asked years ago, "Dad, do pagans eat people?" I nearly choked on my breakfast. So I responded, "Only during communion, punkin'." At which time my wife smacked me on the back of my head with a sausage. Doesn't get much better than that!

[DanKroh]

"Your post reminded me of something my daughter asked years ago, "Dad, do pagans eat people?" I nearly choked on my breakfast. So I responded, "Only during communion, punkin'." At which time my wife smacked me on the back of my head with a sausage. Doesn't get much better than that!"

 

Nah, Pack, only on full moons and bonfire nights.....

[Kudu]

LongHaul writes:

 

Why BP didnt choose to include religion in his original publications is a good question. Maybe some of our historians can answer it for us.

 

Baden-Powell was often asked this question. He replied:

 

There is no religious side to the Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realisation and service of God. [HQ Gazette, November 1920].

 

Baden-Powell called this realization of God "The Religion of the Backwoods," and this service of God "Practical Christianity."

 

In B-P Scouting the realization of God or "The Religion of the Backwoods" is achieved through the close study of nature, or "Scoutcraft":

 

Scoutcraft is a means through which the veriest hooligan can be brought to higher thought and to the elements of faith in God" [Aids to Scoutmastership, WB ed, page 22]

 

See The Inquiry Net:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm

 

Service of God or "Practical Christianity" is achieved through "Service to Others":

 

The boy is naturally inclined to religion, but to instruct him in the points which may appeal to the adult has often the result of either boring him off it or of making him a prig.

 

A sure way to gain his wholehearted realization of God is through Nature study, and of his Christian duties through the Scout's practice of good turns etc. Scouting for Boys, 26th ed. page 243

 

B-P seems to have undergone a spiritual transformation based on the "outdoor life" in the summer of 1898 on a trip to Kashmir. This spiritual insight combined with his creative use of patrols and scouting in the military seems to be the real inspiration for Boy Scouting, with the "Aims of Scouting" as a afterthought for Wood Badge types to fixate upon.

 

See extensive quotes from Tim Jeal's treatment of the subject of spiritual growth and Scouting at:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

The question of this thread as I see it is; Duty to God is a core value of the program why isnt it addressed in any requirement for any rank within the Boy Scout program? We address every other core value at some point in rank advancement. Seems conspicuous by its absence.

 

Real Scouting is a game that always uses the INDIRECT MEANS of SCOUTCRAFT to promote its core values.

 

To promote them directly is just parking lot fundamentalism!

 

Baden-Powell did not make Duty to God an "Advancement" (a BSA term) requirement for the same reason that he did not create Citizenship, or Fitness, or Character, or Scout Spirit, or Leadership requirements for Advancement: to do so would cheapen it by transforming an Ideal into an Obligation (as the BSA did with "Duty to God" in a formal policy statement).

 

For instance "Scout Spirit" requirements turn an intangible Boy Scout spiritual quality into a corrupt, cheap-shot way for trivial adults to force teenage boys to wear a 1980 dress designer's hot house fashion statement by presuming to judge their "spirit" as a requirement for Advancement.

 

Well, you may ask, then why hasn't the BSA cheapened religion by turning it into an Advancement requirement?

 

That is indeed a genuine mystery in the same way that the lack of a BSA "Creation Science" Merit Badge is a genuine mystery :-p

 

Kudu

 

 

[packsaddle]

Kudu, I admit - I find your logic impeccable and your argument persuasive. As to that last thing about creation false-science, shhhhhhhh......they might be listening!

[BrentAllen]

Hmmm.... I don't remember seeing merit badges on Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean or Reverent. Should we get rid of these parts of the program as well?

 

Scouts' Own Services are used pretty regularly around here. These are great services for boys and adults, alike.

 

Not part of the core program? I thought troops repeated the Oath and Law at every meeting. As a youth, when I went through SM reviews or BOR's, I was asked how I lived by the Oath and Law. Scout requirement #7, Tenderfoot #7, Second Class #9, First Class #10. Do y'all just ignore "Duty to God" and Reverent?

[Hunt]

"Not part of the core program? I thought troops repeated the Oath and Law at every meeting. As a youth, when I went through SM reviews or BOR's, I was asked how I lived by the Oath and Law. Scout requirement #7, Tenderfoot #7, Second Class #9, First Class #10. Do y'all just ignore "Duty to God" and Reverent?"

 

The question is whether these are just words, or whether they are truly a core element of the program. The Scout Law also calls for a Scout to be "cheerful," but if that word were dropped from the Law would there be any real change in the BSA program? While you may ask boys at BORs whether they live reverently, what in the actual program promotes that virtue? Is Lisabob points out, there is really nothing in the advancement program that does so, for example.

 

Here's a thought: could we have it both ways? Could we at the same time add program content based on reverence, while dropping the membership requirement for religious belief? I'm thinking of the example of schools sponsored by churches that don't require you to belong to the religion, but if you go to that school you must attend chapel and take religion classes. Perhaps an advancement requirement that would require a boy to learn about either his religion or a variety of religions. In other words, we would tell atheists that they are free to join but they must understand that they will be exposed to religious program content.

[Kudu]

Hunt writes:

 

The question is whether these are just words, or whether they are truly a core element of the program. The Scout Law also calls for a Scout to be "cheerful," but if that word were dropped from the Law would there be any real change in the BSA program? While you may ask boys at BORs whether they live reverently, what in the actual program promotes that virtue? Is Lisabob points out, there is really nothing in the advancement program that does so, for example.

 

A better question is:

 

"While you may ask boys at BORs whether they live cheerfully, what in the actual program promotes that virtue? As Lisabob [a recent Wood Badge victim] points out, there is really nothing in the advancement program that forces boys to be cheerful."

 

Human beings are "meaning makers," Hunt.

 

It is what we do. We can't help it.

 

The Scout Law is an IDEAL, a guide to the Scouting GAME. When Scouts recite the Scout Law and then play a hard game of Scouting, their human brains eventually make a connection between the Ideals and the difficult game.

 

It is what they do. They can't help it.

 

Baden-Powell made them whistle when playing the Scouting Game made them wet, cold, and miserable:

 

"A Scout smiles and whistles under all circumstances."

 

If you are afraid that they "don't get it" and make the study of cheerfulness a part of the Advancement requirements, it is BAD SCOUTING.

 

Bad Scouting is like explaining a joke.

 

Explaining a joke is never funny or "cheerful," and explaining religion (rather making a game out of it as Baden-Powell suggests) is not "reverent" in the Scout meaning of the term.

 

Perhaps an advancement requirement that would require a boy to learn about either his religion or a variety of religions. In other words, we would tell atheists that they are free to join but they must understand that they will be exposed to religious program content.

 

Atheists would be better served by putting their energies into establishing a local Baden-Powell Scouting Group and playing the Game of Scouting as B-P intended it to be played, rather than attempting to spoil the national BSA program even more than it already is.

 

The progressives did more lasting damage when they "modernized" BSA Scouting in 1972, than have the religious conservatives who currently control the Scouting monopoly.

 

The road to bad Scouting is paved with progressive intentions.

 

Kudu

 

The boy is naturally inclined to religion, but to instruct him in the points which may appeal to the adult has often the result of either boring him off it or of making him a prig.

 

A sure way to gain his wholehearted realization of God is through Nature study, and of his Christian duties through the Scout's practice of good turns etc. [scouting for Boys, 26th ed. page 243].

 

[LongHaul]

Kudu,

In reading your last two posts I get the feeling that you find the METHOD we call ADVANCEMENT to be BAD SCOUTING, because it is required. Let's be clear that BP actually wrote NONE of the BSA material or requirements including the OATH and the LAW. So in fact we have never done it the way BP did it. BSA made Reverent a point in the Scout Law not BP, he only had 10, and it has been a point in the Law since the beginning. Being that it has always been part of the BSA approach why not some attention to it? Look over the other 11 points and look carefully at the rank requirements over the years. All 11 are covered in some form or another in skill acquisition, POR, service projects, etc. If we just assume or hope the boy is seeing the God part why not the LNT, or First Aid or Cooking or Camping part? Does making the boys smile, one of BPs points of the Law if I remember, and whistle constitute BAD SCOUTING ? Reminding them to do it is like explaining a joke No?

LongHaul

 

[Kudu]

LongHaul writes:

 

In reading your last two posts I get the feeling that you find the METHOD we call ADVANCEMENT to be BAD SCOUTING, because it is required.

 

Huh? The actual Advancement (more correctly called "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft" in Baden-Powell's Scouting) requirements in early BSA Scouting did not short-circuit Scouting as you and Lisabob propose to do.

 

If you look at the core program (Tenderfoot - First Class) in one of those reprints of the 1911 "First Edition" Handbook for Boys, you will find that it is ALL Scoutcraft except for First Class Requirement 11: "Furnish satisfactory evidence that he has put into practice in his daily life the principles of the scout oath and law."

 

The two most important Advancement requirements (the Second Class and First Class Journeys) are included, and even the term "Rank" is used correctly to refer to leadership position (Patrol Leader, Scoutmaster, etc.) rather than to the level of mastery of Scoutcraft (Tenderfoot, First Class, etc).

 

You would be correct to say that the "review" aspect of early Advancement, which involved written examinations at a regional "Court of Honor" was Bad Scouting because it prohibited the Patrol Leader from practicing the Patrol Method. Generally speaking BSA Scouters are all wannabe Patrol Leaders who will stop at nothing to take over the Patrol Leader's primary duty: the training, examination, and certification of his Patrol members' Scoutcraft skills.

 

Let's be clear that BP actually wrote NONE of the BSA material or requirements including the OATH and the LAW. So in fact we have never done it the way BP did it.

 

Well that is not so "clear," is it?

 

The BSA based its legitimacy on being the American monopoly brand of Baden-Powell's game called "Scouting." Even now, the BSA invents phony Baden-Powell quotes like "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" to justify "Wood Badging" the program.

 

Wood Badge (v): 1. to destroy something by requiring, explaining, or judging it.

 

BSA Material: The original BSA Handbook (before the so-called "First Edition") was a copy of Baden-Powell's Scouting for Boys edited for the BSA by Ernest Seton.

 

Requirements: The early Requirements are mostly copied from Baden-Powell.

 

OATH and the LAW: Yes, James West managed to impose his indoor lawyer moral and religious views on B-P's outdoor Ideals. This completely screwed up the Three Points of the Scout Promise by adding the "morally straight" line, which forced the Three Points to become an abstraction rather than the actual three points of the Promise. This and the added "Clean" and "Reverent" Scout Laws would provide tons of press release material for our present religious fundamentalist rulers. That being said, the BSA Scout Oath and Law are just paraphrases of Baden-Powell's Promise and Law.

 

BSA made Reverent a point in the Scout Law not BP, he only had 10, and it has been a point in the Law since the beginning. Being that it has always been part of the BSA approach why not some attention to it?

 

Actually, the BSA Laws are one-word summaries of Baden-Powell's original nine (9) Scout Laws. B-P added "A Scout is clean in thought, word, and deed" presumably after viewing the BSA Laws, but found no use for "Brave" and "Reverent." For a chart of the history of Scout Law, see The Inquiry Net:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/scout_law/chart.htm

 

It is interesting to note that according to page 56 of the BSA's own official History of the Boy Scouts of America, the process of adding the three extra Scout Laws also included a debate over the addition of an anti-self-abuse Scout Law. Given the lack of press releases on the subject coming out of Irving Texas these days, we must conclude that either 1) The BSA has in fact succeeded in stamping out this practice (in which case skeptics should congratulate the Christian fundamentalists on their efficiency) or 2) this is just another example of the "don't ask, don't tell" attitude to which Lisabob objects.

 

So why don't we put our creative energies into "Personal Purity" Advancement requirements? We could require a Scout to meet with his religious leader to find out his religious institution's policy on the subject, and then report to his Scoutmaster and the BOR on his success in "putting this into practice in his daily life" since his last Rank Advancement. Certainly Personal Purity is a lot less personal than a Scout's Duty to God, which is really nobody else's business.

 

Here, I will help Cub Scout the Boy Scout program: "Under the direction of your religious leader, practice Personal Purity for at least a month. Talk about your Personal Purity with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel."

 

Look over the other 11 points and look carefully at the rank requirements over the years. All 11 are covered in some form or another in skill acquisition, POR, service projects, etc.

 

No, they are not. For the most part, the Scout is left to make the moral connection between Scoutcraft and Scout Law for himself.

 

It is the codifying of the Aims & Methods of Scouting into literal Advancement requirements that short-circuits Scouting. POR Advancement Requirements did not exist in William Hillcourt's program because they Wood Badge the Patrol Method. Service Projects should be done from the Spirit of Scouting, not for the cheap reward of credit for an Advancement requirement.

 

Simply put, your approach fosters religious fundamentalism: the practice of the selective enforcement of the written word and the sitting in judgment of others. Real Scouting is the eventual internalization of Scout Law into a Scout's freely-chosen actions, not something he does so that he can have the quality of his spirit judged by you.

 

If we just assume or hope the boy is seeing the God part why not the LNT, or First Aid or Cooking or Camping part?

 

Because Scouting is a Game of Scoutcraft.

 

This would be easier to understand if the BSA used Baden-Powell's Uniform design. On a B-P Uniform, the badges that represent a Scout's Service to Others ("Practical Christianity") such as "First Aid" are worn on the left sleeve of the Uniform, and the badges that represent a Scout's mastery of Scoutcraft ("The Religion of the Woods") such as "Cooking" and "Camping" are worn on the right sleeve of the Uniform.

 

A sure way to gain his wholehearted realization of God is through Nature study, and of his Christian duties through the Scout's practice of good turns etc.

 

Does making the boys smile, one of BPs points of the Law if I remember, and whistle constitute BAD SCOUTING?

 

I'm sure that one could "address smiling in a requirement for a rank" and Wood Badge the joy out of it, yes.

 

Reminding them to do it is like explaining a joke No?

 

No. Reminding them to smile in the face of adversity is the Spirit of Scouting.

 

I will leave it to the modernists to force them to meet with experts in the field to learn how to smile correctly, and to figure out a way to sit in judgement of the quality of their joy.

 

Kudu

 

[Lisabob]

Kudu, I appreciate your view on what scouting is, and what you think it should be. Often I find your posts to be quite interesting and your web links worth reading. On the other hand, your posts tend to be mono-thematic. This thread has nothing to do with Wood Badge and I do tire of your attempt to blame all ills, real and perceived, of the current BSA program on the WB for the 21st Century course syllabus. If you don't want to go through that version of the course and/or don't find any value in it, that's fine, I don't recall trying to force you to do it. The value of the beads, such that they have any at all, is in the estimation of the person wearing them, and I know what mine are worth.

 

As for pushing religion to the fore: it is the BSA who seems to want to do this. My proposal is a logical extension of all this talk about how religion is so central to the program. Personally I would prefer to see the BSA focus its energy on other issues and concerns. But if we're going to engage in witch hunts and inflammatory rhetoric about religion's role in the BSA - which seems to happen a lot - then I think the BSA should get up its collective gumption and put its money where its mouth is (or at least, where its current policies encourage certain members to go) and add explicit requirements in support of that core component. Either they mean it or they don't - can't have it both ways, in my view.

 

Nor do I believe there's any truth to your claim that this is "cub scouting" the boy scout program, which is apparently meant in a derogatory manner. Please. The cub scout program is worthy in its own right (if you don't think so, that's your prerogative but has little to do with the current thread either) and no one except you is talking about turning boy scouts into cub scouts. I made a comparison in terms of religious requirements to point out to those who may have missed it, that in SOME of its programs, BSA is quite explicit about using religion as an advancement requirement and that it COULD be done in a fairly generic way (as the various cub requirements reflect). So the argument against doing so in the boy scout program should not be "it can't be done" because it IS already being done elsewhere in the BSA family.

 

And finally - I agree very much with the notion of the religion of the woods. I will say from my personal experience, that's exactly how and where I decided for myself that there must be a higher power and this was not in keeping with my formal religious upbringing, which I had more or less rejected for various reasons. I imagine that, if I had been a boy and had been in boy scouts (which, growing up in a scouting family, I almost certainly would have been) then there would have been a point as a teen where I wouldn't have met the membership requirement with regard to religious belief. I don't think we, as an organization, do ourselves or the boys we serve or the public in general much service by telling people in that position that they cannot be members anymore while the sort through their beliefs (or lack thereof). But that's my view, and it is not current BSA policy.

[Jeffrey H]

Baden-Powell was a great man, but none of his writings, including his personal thoughts about God and religion, were infallible.  The BSA or any other scouting organizations in the world have no obligation to be Baden-Powell purists.  We can learn from the best of his teachings, but we are unwise to think that all that he taught should be canonized.

 

The BSA promotes each scout to practice his religion in order to for him to interpret his duty to God.  I have no problem with that and I believe its a good policy.  What bothers me is when an OA member begins praying to the Great Scout Spirit or Great Spirit and Im supposed to accept that as my personal belief?  Not.  This is good example of the BSA promoting a religion I do not practice.  In this scenario, their non-sectarian policy falls on its face.  I have high respect for Native Americans and their religions, but I dont accept their religious views as my own. 

 

I believe in God, but the problem is religion and things gets real messy when we try to blend different religions together in order not to offend anyone, but usually everyone gets offended anyway. 

 

 

KUDU states:

This would be easier to understand if the BSA used Baden-Powell's Uniform design. On a B-P Uniform, the badges that represent a Scout's Service to Others ("Practical Christianity") such as "First Aid" are worn on the left sleeve of the Uniform, and the badges that represent a Scout's mastery of Scoutcraft ("The Religion of the Woods") such as "Cooking" and "Camping" are worn on the right sleeve of the Uniform.

 

Im glad the BSA never adopted this for two reasons:  #1 Too many patches and too much decoration.  #2 - Those of us living in the southern US usually avoid long-sleeve shirts.

 

[John-in-KC]

Lisa,

 

I've not seen you that riled up in a while

 

There are times when I look at the IDEALS method of Scouting and wonder if we don't make it subservient to the Advancement or Personal Growth Methods. I like the ideas several have advanced here of earning the appropriate religious award to advance, particularly either to 1st Class or Star.

 

There is a conundrum, though; we need to consider those families who are NON-theistic. Not atheistic, NON-theistic. God just isn't a part of the families life, and thus is not part of the Scouts' life. I counsel PRAY's God and Church award. Although I profess Christianity, I also accept Scoutings non-sectarian "Family Choice" touchstone for faith.

 

Maybe what LH suggested, but with more time on the clock (age appropriate to older youth) is part of the answer. I could see making faith part of the advancement trail to Star, with the requirements he mentioned (all of them, not do two!) being part of the tenure clause.

 

Thoughts of others?

[Lisabob]

John, I don't think that the non-theistic aspect is really a problem. I can see where having some sort of requirement to explore and think about religion(s) would be just as useful for people in this position as it would be for people who profess a specific belief. No one is asking to convert a boy (well ok, I'm not at any rate) - rather, it could be a matter of providing structure for the boy to understand the broad array of religions and the sociological or (dare I say it?) anthropological role of religion in society. Of course I suppose the larger problem would be in terms of ground-level applications, in areas where "everybody" belongs to the same basic religious group and people tend to proselytize. They'd need to understand and apply such a requirement in a way that didn't feed into that tendency.

 

As for where such a requirement would "fit" I agree that it would be more logical further along the trail (Star/Life) than in the initial ranks. This assumes, of course, that any such requirement would be designed in a way that would welcome serious questions rather than just stuff belief systems down a kid's throat (easier to do with younger kids, tougher with older teens).

 

Oh, and "riled up?" Nah - just expressing myself. It takes a bit more than this forum to get me "riled up."