Under One God...but who's God?

[2Eagle]

Trevorum,

Much critical research has been done recently in light of the current unpleasantries. Some say that Mohammed had his first "visitation" from a spirit around 610 AD when he was about 40 years old. In his hometown of Mecca many gods were worshipped...some say as many as 300. His tribe may have worshipped Allah the moon god. He chose Allah to be the "one" god which is why one sees a crescent moon often associated with Muslims. These circumstances and a host of other theological touch points are significantly different than the methods Jehovah chose to reveal himself to mankind.

[Trevorum]

All ancient peoples were originally polytheistic, including the Hebrews. Sometimes the shift to monotheism was permanent, as among the Hebrews (and later in Arabia) and sometimes it was reversed, as happened in Egypt.

 

As I said, some sects do claim that Allah is not the same diety as Jehovah/Adonai and they certainly have the right to that belief. Nonetheless, most theological scholars will disagree.

[jambo]

My opinion: " Scout leaders should stay out of politics and religion" it's scouting, and not a debating society ! jambo

[LongHaul]

>>My opinion: " Scout leaders should stay out of politics and religion" it's scouting, and not a debating society ! jambo

[HiLo]

The WOSM website lists the Promise and Law in their original form as written by Baden-Powell:

____________________________________________________

The Scout Promise

 

On my honour I promise that I will do my best

To do my duty to God and the King (or to God and my Country);

To help other people at all times;

To obey the Scout Law.

 

The Scout Law

 

1. A Scouts honour is to be trusted.

2. A Scout is loyal.

3. A Scouts duty is to be useful and to help others.

4. A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout.

5. A Scout is courteous.

6. A Scout is a friend to animals.

7. A Scout obeys orders of his parents, Patrol Leader or Scoutmaster without question.

8. A Scout smiles and whistles under all difficulties.

9. A Scout is thrifty.

10. A Scout is clean in thought, word and deed.

_________________________________________________________________

 

But they are prefaced with "...in language appropriate to the culture and civilization of each National Scout Organization and approved by the World Organization..."

 

In my home country of Australia we now say "MY God" in the Promise, which was suggested by some posters earlier in this thread. It works for me.

 

In my view, the words "in language appropriate to the culture and civilization of each National Scout Organization" allow for huge flexibility in how a national body can choose to adapt the original words. So the World organisation is hardly prescriptive on this matter. (It really can't afford to be, can it?)

[John-in-KC]

HI-Lo,

 

Welcome to the Forums!

 

As a Christian I am supposed to be relatively in-tolerant of other gods. There are more than a few NT verses where the Triune God declares his exclusivity.

 

As a Scouter of a Christian denomination, if you ask me about My God, I will tell you about My Lord and Savior the Triune God.

 

As simply a Scouter, there are few limits on what I'll accept of a Scout for faith: I expect a young man and his family to select and live within a faith community. Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Shinto, Buddhist... I also ask that at a Summer Camp, faith communities outside Christendom provide for their Scouts on the Sabbath.

 

I do, however, ask that a Chaplain not play "mix and match" of writings from various faith traditions in "one size fits all." It does not, and I will complain of scandalous conduct to the Council Relationships Committee if it happens (again).

 

Numbers 6: 24-26

The Lord Bless you and Keep you.

The Lord make His face to shine on you and be gracious to you.

The Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you His Peace.

 

Amen.

[jambo]

I think ' LongHoul 'has it confused between religion, and God. God is what you believe in, but religion is the medium through which one believe in. Therefore, the discussion stands as is: " Scout leaders should stay out of politics and religion ", that should be the domain at home,or privately ,and not in a unit setting.Definitely an individual believe . jambo

[packsaddle]

On the contrary, while I tend to agree with you regarding the personal nature of religion, I give LongHaul more credit than that. I think he has a good idea of the difference between 'god' and 'religion'. And even if we sometimes disagree, I think he asks a fair question. The fact that so many of us answer that question so differently is the essence of the problem.

 

To illustrate this I refer to a statement by John-in-KC, "I also ask that at a Summer Camp, faith communities outside Christendom provide for their Scouts on the Sabbath."

This statement is makes no sense whatever...I'm being generous. What is clear to me is that John-in-KC would like to be inclusive - but his personal view is obscured to the fact that the concept of the "Sabbath" ONLY applies to certain religions, including his. And, according to his statement, if any of those OTHER faiths want to provide for their Scouts, they can just wait until the day HIS religion has set aside for such providence.

 

The fact that John-in-KC's gesture of generosity (and I believe this to be genuine) is predicated on the foundation of his own religion is WHY this topic is so sensitive and difficult.

In situations like this, it might be better to just keep our pie holes shut about religion and allow the boys and their families decide for themselves.

 

But what I think is clearly objectionable (and I think you and LongHaul and most of the rest of us would agree) is the idea that leaders should proselytize for one specific faith rather than to encourage boys to pursue whatever ideas of faith the boys and their families may choose. Parents around here would tend to take a dim view of that as well.

The problem is how to avoid that situation while meeting the BSA requirement. And that is what I think LongHaul's question is about.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[jambo]

You guys, are trying to draw me into arguing with you over politics of religion...as I said before .. " Scout leaders should stay out of politics and religiion.jambo

[ASM915]

Jambo,

Not trying to draw you into a debate here.

I agree with you on politics, but how is a SM to stay out of Religion when we are to lead by example with "DUTY TO GOD" and being

"REVERANT"? It does not state anywhere that the SM is to teach/preach doctrine. That would be impossible to do, unless the Unit was maybe a LDS Unit where all the members were of the same denomination. Most Units are a mix of different denominations as well as religions.

 

A SM should be able to sit down with any Scout of any faith, and hopefully carry on a discussion about that Scouts faith and beliefs. Hopefully the SM has done research and has an understanding about the religions he has to deal with within his Troop. He should be able to ask:

How the Scout feels about his faith?

How he shows his faith?

How does the Scout help his religious institution, Temple, Mosque Synagogue, Church, etc?, without prejudice.

The SM should be able to direct the Scout to the appropriate authority to answer questions that the youth may have. The SM should be able to direct the Scout to the appropriate religious Emblems program if the Scout asks.

 

John,

You I like arguing with (Sorry Jambo).

Is summer-camp big enough numbers wise (like NOAC) each week, that they can run services at different times/days for each of the different religions? Is it a problem running an interfaith vespers, especially since the Judeo Christian and Islamic faiths all have the same GOD, just belief that the other has different prophets of the faith? Even Hindu runs off of a Trilogy, just different names for the key three.

 

As long as the service, songs and prayers are kept interfaith and not faith specific, everyone should be and feel welcome. If an individual Troop does not wish to participate because of this, they could always approach the camp Chaplain about a private service, maybe held at their campsite. But then what ever happened to being Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful and Reverent?

So much for teaching diversity, tolerance and cultural awareness.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[Trevorum]

John-in-KC suggests that Christians are supposed to be intolerant of other gods. I'm not sure about that, but I'll defer to John and other Christians to debate the matter.

 

However, as a Unitarian Universalist I am encouraged to be fully tolerant of other beliefs. That is one of the things that I greatly appreciate about UU-ism. At a regular UU faith service, I might have a Jew on one side, a Catholic on the other, a Wiccan in front, and an atheist in back of me. And we all chuckle together because those labels do none of us justice.

 

[LongHaul]

Thank you packsaddle, you saved me from a long reply, Ill accept that jambo is new and has not read many of my previous posts. Thanks also to ASM 915 for pointing out that as an SM one should be prepared for questions concerning the faith of every scout in his troop. In my capacity of Religious Award Instructor I do indeed teach doctrine to SOME of my scouts. As this is an ongoing project I make use of idle time when and where it presents itself as I do with all advancement. In my capacity of SM, I must be able to discuss the Religious Award requirements of all faiths represented in my troop and outside my troop and be able to discuss why the scout should want to earn his Religious Award. How do I do this without delving into religious beliefs?

 

As for politics, how can we as SMs encourage our scouts to work on their Citizenship mbs without accepting that each of them asks the scout to make himself more aware of the political side of our governmental system? Citizenship in the Nation req #8 asks that the scout pick a national issue and write to a congressman about it. Name me a national issue that does not end up becoming political.

 

Jambo, when you made the statement that leaders should stay out of religion and politics you voiced an opinion on a subject. When others voice their opinion on the same subject you claim we are trying to draw you into an argument and then repeat your original position on the subject. Is this how you teach your scouts to be better citizens, state their position and refuse to acknowledge that other views could be valid? Sounds political to me. Politics extends beyond governmental boundaries; do think the term Politically Correct has to do with getting elected or with interacting with your fellow citizens? Taking sides and discussing the views of these sides is not the same thing.

LongHaul

 

[John-in-KC]

A few verses from Scripture, to get to my point of "As a Christian I am supposed to be relatively in-tolerant of other gods."

 

John 14:5-14: 5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

 

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

 

8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

 

9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Revelation 3: 14-16

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarmneither hot nor coldI am about to spit you out of my mouth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ephesians 2:1-10

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I quote these sections of Scripture not to evangelize, but to demonstrate my point: God does not will it that His people embrace other gods. As a Scouter, though, my duty is to allow families the latitude to choose and practice a faith tradition.

 

We provide Catholic, Protestant Christian, Community of Christ, and Episcopal chaplain coverage at our Scout Camp. When one of the area Synagogues comes to camp, they adjust fire and do their Shabbat service Sunday morning (as I recall, someone in the Troops serves as cantor, and I believe they have deployed a rabbi to cover the unit.

 

I do not think it unreasonable to ask that the less common faith traditions, whatever they be, provide for their Scouts in long term camp. Of course, on the trail, that's a different story... the young men need some form of small prayerbook/songbook, and will need to do it themselves.

 

To conclude this I need to point out two camp practices in my area: One of our Reservations runs 6 10 day sessions of Scout Camp. Typically one Sunday is part of the session. Yes, it's a "deal with the majority attending", but we use Sunday for worship and Visitor's Day.

 

Our other Scout Reservation runs a more modern 7 day session. Wednesday afternoon and evening is Visitor's time with chapel, campfire, and such. At that camp, that is when I'd expect non-Christian communities to provide faith support to their Scouts. After all, that when we Christians do worship.

 

Peace be with you in all you do

 

John

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Howdy, all.

 

Regarding JohnInKC's statement, "As a Scouter, though, my duty is to allow families the latitude to choose and practice a faith tradition."

 

I don't know that that goes far enough in a multi-religious unit. I think as a Scouter, my duty is, within reason, to aid & facilitate my scouts in their faith traditions while participating in Scout activities. That can take all sorts of forms - creating a kosher or vegetarian chuckbox, re-arranging duty rosters so various sabbath rules aren't broken, using universal references to God when saying grace before meals.

 

None of this is a big deal, but it can prevent an observant scout (or parent) from seeing a conflict between Duty to God and Scouting.

 

NC

[John-in-KC]

NC,

 

I will agree with you up to the point of prayers to a universal god. In discussions with my Pastor, that is anathema.

 

Had a talk with a Philmont Chaplain a few years back. His position was, when all are inside Christendom, he led Christian worship. When there were folks who self-identified as non-Christians, he set worship aside, discussed some things, and then dismissed the session. Those who wanted to pray in their own tradition were then in position to so do.