Under One God...but who's God?

[adc294]

Sorry, I just spent a half hour putting together a nice reply and wiped it out in a second!

 

While I can tolerate and respect anyone's position or beliefs, I hope you understand that I don't have to accept or support any. If you are a preverbial "odd man out", you are faced with an uphill task. I am there time and time again, but is more important what others think of you or whether you believe in yourself?

 

ASM, I did not mean to imply that Native Americans do not belive in Jesus, that would be clearly wrong. I am sure that God is God and that we all worship the same one in reality...except the atheists of course.

 

OGE...I guess I need to understand my own religion a little better (in all seriousness).

 

 

 

 

[adc294]

Sorry, I just spent a half hour putting together a nice reply and wiped it out in a second!

 

While I can tolerate and respect anyone's position or beliefs, I hope you understand that I don't have to accept or support any. If you are a preverbial "odd man out", you are faced with an uphill task. I am there time and time again, but is more important what others think of you or whether you believe in yourself?

 

ASM, I did not mean to imply that Native Americans do not belive in Jesus, that would be clearly wrong. I am sure that God is God and that we all worship the same one in reality...except the atheists of course. You are right, also, in your statement that there is nothing wrong about learning diversity. Sometimes it translates to survival.

 

OGE...I guess I need to understand my own religion a little better (in all seriousness).

 

 

 

 

[DanKroh]

ASM915, while there may be some American Indian religions that have absorbed the idea of Jesus as divine, I think most of them are still polytheistic in nature. On a couple of Pagan forums that I interact on, there are a good number of people who identify as NA who also identify their spirituality as Pagan. Just because they "believes in Jesus", doesn't mean that their religion is Abrahamic (depending on *what* they believe *about* Jesus).

 

I like the idea of a religious diversity award. I think the BSA has a great opportunity to teach about other religions. Even for Pagans to learn about Pagan paths other than their own would be a good thing. Unfortunately, some Pagan know about as much about other paths as your average Catholic would know about one of the more esoteric Protestant denominations; the beliefs can be that divergent among Pagan religions.

[adc294]

I suspect that idea would be much like sex education in public schools. Children at the age we are talking about are highly influenced and therefore are suceptable to learning things that their parents don't want them to learn. I do not believe that Scouting should hold that responsibility, it's not like learning different ways to cook a hamburger.

 

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

I suspect that idea (religious diversity) would be much like sex education in public schools. Children at the age we are talking about are highly influenced and therefore are susceptible to learning things that their parents don't want them to learn. I do not believe that Scouting should hold that responsibility; it's not like learning different ways to cook a hamburger.

        We can discuss Citizenship as long as we dont say anything bad about Bush? We can discuss 911 as long as we dont bring religion or politics into it? We can discuss respect for each other at the Venturing level but dont mention gender? We can discuss personal safety and internet safety as long as we dont identify any real dangers? I am constantly faced with what parents dont want their children to learn about. If my religion is based on faith BUT that faith must be based in ignorance of any other concept then how do I live in a world with others and not be forced to kill everyone not of my faith? How can I possibly prevent my children from finding out that everyone isnt what ever I am? Parents are responsible for answering the questions arising from Ya but Johnnies Mom says the is/ is no God? Dont play with Johnnie! doesnt solve the problem or address the question.  If we can't tell them WHY we have to lock them up becasue there is just too much information out there and it is just too accessable.

           I was raised Roman Catholic.  First thing they taught us was there is only one God and that we should not worship anyone else.  OK Im good with the concept.  Next they taught us God comes in three parts.  Confused but still listening and trying to put the pieces in place. Then they taught us the Hail Mary and told us to pray to her. Time Out!  Wait a minute! What happened to one God and dont worship anyone else?  The back of a hand and being forced to kneel in the corner iced the cake for me and I was 5!  I spent many a Saturday at our library looking for answers but didnt know which books to look in, or what questions to ask.  The older I got the bigger the library I looked in.   Today I can go online and search religious libraries around the world and just ask questions and get resource material to look at.   The stuff they taught us just does not stand up to fact and history.  When saying that this is what we believe and acknowledging that not every one believes the same we are accepting reality.  If we can pass our faith along to our children then thats our problem and shortcoming.  Ignorance doesnt work as a teaching tool in a world of instant information.

        We are discussing a core value of the organization we are members of.  If Duty to God is so important that we will go to the Supreme Court to fight for our right to protect it why dont we require it for rank advancement like we do Citizenship and Personal Fitness and Community Service. Duty to God, to Others , to ones Self are supposed to be important why are only the last two addressed in the skills and experience we seek for rank advancement? You have to believe in being a good citizen and prove it thru education and action. You have to believe in personal and physical fitness and prove it thru education and action. You have to believe in helping others as a positive ideal and prove it thru education and action. You have to believe in God but well take your word for it?

 LongHaul

[ASM915]

DK,

Right you are. I didnt mean for the post to come off sounding that all N.A. believe in Jesus. I just wanted adc to clarify his post, having a good idea what he was really trying to say. Precontact, yes their spirituality was and is still Earth Based. The nice thing about the N.A. is they are adapt. Many have converted, but are still able to keep their identity because they were able to see, blend and use the good from both. I have friends that grew up Christian, believe in God and Jesus and are now practicing Pagans. Years ago on PBS, there was a program or series on religion. The host was a practicing minister in one of the Protestant denominations, was a practicing Buddhist and went to Temple on Sat. for Sabbath. It was very interesting.

 

LongHaul, At least National is letting the Cubbies, Web.'s and Ventures use Religion as an elective for their rank andvancement. They just forgot about us bastard kids of the PRETWEENS. It's not an elective for us, just a rarely mentioned side program.

DK, How about a Religious/Cultural Diversity Camporee or Jamboree? We'll invited the Earth-Based gang, the the Judeo-Chritians, Muslims, Hindi Buddhist, heck anyone who will come.

 

Simple rule:

1) Come respectfully with an open mind wanting to learn about and meet new friends.

 

2) Be respectful of other participants beliefs.

 

3) Everyone could give a simple presentation on their specific religion and culture and how we can work together for a better world.

 

4) Offer up a PEACE OFFERING of their favorite cuisine. No better way to make friend then sharing food and drink. adc you bring the burgers, I'll bring the spices.

 

DK, adc, LongHaul and Trev., where are you all from and what background? Send it off forum if you prefer. Just curious who my acquaintances are.(This message has been edited by ASM915)(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[Trevorum]

For a quick survey of religious diversity, see Kudu's site:

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/faiths/index.htm

[DanKroh]

ASM, I like the Jamboree idea. But for the favorite cuisine, do you really thing the others would be willing to partake of freshly sacrificed babies? (Sorry, could resist...)

 

As far as your other question, I'm an initiated Wiccan clergy, who also attends a UU church on a semi-regular basis. I was a United Methodist until I was about 20 or so, and I was also married to practicing Jew for 12 years. I continue to expose my children to the Jewish faith as I am able to honor her memory, as well as any other faith that they show interest in, and support whatever decision they make about their religious paths. My 12 y.o. has chosen a Pagan path, but my 7 y.o. still considers himself a "seeker" (his word) but seems to be leaning toward a Christian path. And it's all good.

[packsaddle]

I too, think it is a great idea. Probably should ban weapons though, I'd hate to get shot or something. I don't discuss my personal beliefs publicly but might make an exception for such a jamboree. I was raised Presbyterian. Memorized vast portions of scripture, earned the God and Country award, tried my best to understand predestination...and failed. So I mostly poke fun at 'em now.

I would also suggest that each of us bring a joke about our own belief system if we can think of one. That shouldn't cause conflict should it?

Seriously, I'd be interested to see if each of us could identify and share with the group the most difficult question or criticism we can think of for our own faith. THAT would be interesting.

[Trevorum]

... "... the most difficult question or criticism ..."

 

(sigh)

 

Where's Rooster when you need him? ...

[packsaddle]

Oh, I think I heard that he was taken during the mini-rapture of 2006. The rest of us slimes were left behind again.

[ASM915]

Did you here the one about the dyslexic Agnostic and the dyslexic Atheist? yhe Agnostic wondered whether there really was a Dog while the Atheist believed there was no such thing as a Dog.

Sorry couldn't resist. I'm can take a R.C. joke standing up if you have one. Oops, seriously was the joke allowed? If not I apologize in advance.

DK, marinated or smoked? By the way when you arrive park your vehicle in the third closet on the right.

Rooster? Maybe on the spit or in the oven.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[OldGreyEagle]

Of all the things I know about the regulars here is that we represent a tremoundous amount of belief diversity. Had I not spent the time I have on this forum, I would assume that the forum should reflect about a 80-90% Christian membership, but it looks like its more like 50% Christian. Which makes me wonder, who are the people who think the BSA is a christian organization? Is this a real issue? Or is not an issue on the local level and is more of one on a regional or national level?

[packsaddle]

OGE, good question. It is open to a little interpretation though. I am guessing that a devout Christian might think BSA is a Christian organization. Furthermore this might be restated with an element of purpose, Boy Scouts of America IS and SHOULD BE (remain) a Christian organization.

 

At the same time a pagan might think BSA is predominantly Christian but should NOT be. Same for any number of other minorities.

 

If the Mormons are included as Christians the Christian lock on the organization seems secure. But when I asked that question in another thread, there was some disagreement among Mormons themselves about their status regarding Christianity, so even that isn't necessarily clear.

 

I think the only statement that can be made clearly is the one that BSA makes in court. BSA is a religious organization, no question. Beyond that, BSA's religious identity is either obscured or else it's confused and undetermined.

[Trevorum]

While I appreciate the fact that BSA is religiously diverse and in fact takes pains to reach out to (some) minority faith groups, I nonetheless strongly suspect that our membership does NOT represent a random sample of the US population with respect to religion. Rather, our religious cross-section is skewed to the right for several reasons.

 

(1) BSA membership policies actively exclude most of the religious "left" including those who self-identify themselves as Humanist, secular, athiest, agnostic, none. This is a large slice of the US population, as Merlyn will attest.

 

(2) At the same time, some faiths on the "right" of the spectrum - notably LDS - actively promote BSA membership more than do others with the result that, nationwide, BSA religious membership is heavily weighted to the right.

 

As I've said many times before, I think it's a shame that not all boys have the opportunity to be Scouts. Eight year olds should not be excluded from membership because of the religious beliefs of their parents (or because of their private lives, but that's another thread.)