Under One God...but who's God?

[Hunt]

I wouldn't say that this thread was hijacked--it's really more typical thread drift, since the discussions are at least related to the original post. To respond to a few things:

 

Merlyn wrote: "Hunt, the BSA clearly practices discrimination. I don't know why you keep trying to avoid the word. A group that said Jews (and only Jews) couldn't join would be described as discriminatory. Atheists are no different."

 

Merlyn, make sure you read my whole post before you respond; if you had, you would see that I wrote about the "form of discrimination BSA practices." Yes, BSA practices discrimination because not everybody can join. The local synagogue fits your description: it is a group that only allows Jews to join--and so, yes, it is discriminatory. The issue is whether the discrimination is illegal, unjust, or unfair.

 

Merlyn also wrote: "As for one more example of why an atheist would be in scouting, what about someone who has been in scouting since age 8 and who becomes an atheist at age 16?"

 

What about him? Would you say that it was unfair if a church told him he could no longer be a member under the same circumstances? Would it be unfair for the Elvis Presley Fan Club to kick you out if you showed up and said that you now despise Elvis? This idea that it is unfair for BSA to exclude atheists only makes sense if you don't really believe that BSA is serious about Duty to God being one of its core values.

 

Packsaddle wrote: "Hunt, I asked how the discrimination benefits the boys and you responded, "To me, the simple answer to this is not everybody can belong to every club, even if his peer group belongs...." I didn't see an answer to my question. Please identify how discrimination is of benefit to the boys. The way I interpret what you wrote is, "Tough luck" or "BSA, love it or leave it". Is this what you meant to communicate?"

 

What I thought I communicated is that groups discriminate because they see a benefit to creating a group with shared experiences or beliefs. Obviously, that is of no benefit to the people who can't get it, and I guess it is tough luck for them, just like it's tough luck for me that I can't shoot pool at the VFW clubhouse. BSA's discrimination is of benefit to the boys in Scouting because it provides them an opportunity to be part of a group that has Duty to God as one of its core values.

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hunt, the BSA's 'god' requirement is theologically meaningless. You can believe in multiple gods, gods that ignore the entire human race, and any two scouters can have gods that subscribe diametrically opposite behavior. There's absolutely no commonality. It's like defending a whites-only organization because the members really want to be with other whites. I'll still criticize them.

[packsaddle]

Late, as usual, I respond to the request to prove God doesn't exist. Although Merlyn has already provided one approach to the answer, I will attempt it using a slightly different approach.

If I was an attorney, I would note that beliefs are not the same thing as facts supported by evidence. Belief in a god does not automatically make the god's existence a fact (except perhaps in some limited way in the believer's mind). To ask for proof of that god's nonexistence is to assume a fact not in evidence.

Another way to put it is that it is usually pointless, if not impossible, to prove a negative. Of course, true believers are going to accept neither this line of reasoning nor any evidence to the contrary, if they really are true believers. Such beliefs simply are not available to any kind of objective test, thus also eliminating them from the category of fact.

[packsaddle]

Hunt, I am responding separately to your post. I understand, now, what you meant by that statement. However, I thought the shared experience for the boys in scouting was...scouting. I suppose that, accepting the BSA claim that it is a religious organization, there is something to your view. However, as already noted, even with the limited umbrella that BSA accepts (excluding UUs and Wiccans, probably some others) there is a broad spectrum of belief systems and they are probably not shared by everyone that BSA accepts as members. This group that you have in mind is quite diverse in most aspects except for scouting itself.

 

To respond to an earlier comment regarding divisiveness, I think discrimination is always divisive...it would seem by definition. BSA chose to discriminate. It's that simple. Your comparison of BSA policy to the Catholic church is a comparison you might want to think about a bit more.

[adc294]

For those of you who are advocates of God, how many of you think that the way of the American Indian and their views on a God shouldn't be allowed in Scouting? Their view directly contradict (I believe) those of the Europeans.

 

 

[Trevorum]

Pack, huh??

 

Are you suggesting that BSA excludes Wiccans and UUs? Surely not. This must be a syntax error.

 

For the record, both Wiccans and UUs - and all other faiths - are welcome in BSA.

[OldGreyEagle]

How can Native American beleifs be against the BSA when both the Order of the Arrow and Mic-O-Say Honor Camping Societies honor Native American culture?

 

Scoutings concept of God does not necessarily reflect Eurocentric thinking unless you accept the Baha'i, Hindu. Islam, Jewish and Zoroastrian faiths as having roots in Europe

[packsaddle]

Trevorum, I think that you are only partially correct. Given the 'special treatment' of UUs and Wiccans with regard to religious awards, I would not exactly say they are welcome with status equal to other faiths. They are allowed in. Their faiths are not treated equally. Do you disagree?

 

Edited part: I think OGE and I were typing at the same time. OGE, I think his point was that the Protestant/LDS dominance of BSA has its roots in Europe (you know, Luther and all that) or (in the case of LDS) a person of European origin and not one of the indigenous tribes . Unless you think that Hinduism and Buddhism, etc. dominate BSA, do you?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[adc294]

OGE...

I guess that is my point. It seems to me that the majority of those opponents to acceptance of other religions (or none)in Scouting belong to faiths having roots in Europe.

While I am Roman Catholic, I have always had a great respect for the wisdom of American Indians. They do not believe in Jesus Christ so does my respect for their culture put me in jeopardy with the teachings of my religion? Also, Native Americans believe that we can not own the land, it belongs to everyone and ever creature. The Boy Scouts of America owns a lot of land, is that a contradiction or a selective acceptance of belief? By the way, do we have Muslims in the BSA (legitamate question)?

[Trevorum]

Pack, I disagree. I can not speak for Wicca, but UUs are fully accepted and supported by BSA at all levels (notwithstanding possible misunderstandings at the local level by scattered units here and there). As a member of the Religious Relationships Committee, I can assure you that BSA National is 100% welcoming of UUs (while perhaps a bit gunshy of the UUA).

 

Case in point: Hal Yokum, longtime UU and member of the UUSO executive board, has just been awarded the Silver Buffalo by BSA National. And his religious affiliation was absolutely not an issue.

 

The problem is that Scouting in general and BSA in particular unquestionably DO have roots in traditional European notions of reverence. Both have long since realized the value of religious diversity and welcome members from all faiths. However, the patrimony remains with the unfortunate consequence that some loose-cannon members insist that BSA is a Christian oranization or a Judeo-Christian organization (or a Islamic-Judeo-Christian organization).

 

adc, yes, BSA has thousands of Muslim members and recognizes the Bismillah award for Cubs and Webelos and the In the Name of God award for Scouts and Venturers. Many (perhaps most) Muslim members are registered in multi-faith units, but in December 2006, Islamic organizations sponsored 98 units nationwide.

[OldGreyEagle]

The BSA website has a fact sheet for islam in Scouting,

 

http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-928.html

 

if you google Islam and Boy Scouts you will get a lot of articles.

 

I am also Roman Catholic, spent three years in St Charles Borremeo Seminary in Lockport, Illinois. Now, it was only the first three years of Seminary but I dont remember ever being told if you respect another's culture and beliefs you couldn't be a Priest, much less a lay Roman Catholic. I think the Roman Catholic church is much more tolerant of other beliefs than it is given credit.

 

In the Troop, District and Council I serve I have not run across any person or group trying to ram christian or the God of the Bible (Islam, Judiasm, Christian) down to anybody, could they exist, most certainly, but its nothing I have tripped over (as yet)

[DanKroh]

Trev says: "I can not speak for Wicca, but UUs are fully accepted and supported by BSA at all levels (notwithstanding possible misunderstandings at the local level by scattered units here and there)."

 

While the BSA, at least on my local level in my personal experience, is fully accepting of Pagans, the national organization has put a few roadblocks in place to keep Pagans from ever having a religious emblem program. Part of it is due to the nature of Pagan religions and their organization (or lack thereof), but it seems to me that the BSA is certainly not being very accomodating of the unique nature of Pagan religions.

 

The problems comes from the "must have 25 units charterd" and "be a national organization". Paganism is an umbrella that includes many, many religions, of which Wicca is the largest and best known. Because we are really many different religions which would each have a different governing body, it would be very, very difficult for any Pagan religion other than Wicca to ever meet those requirements. A national Wiccan organization called Covenant of the Goddess has tried to become a "governing body" for Wicca, but they are not acknowledged by a majority of Wiccans. Still, CoG has developed an emblem curriculum and has tried to petition the BSA for recognition of the program, and were basically stymied by their policies.

 

Any other Pagan religions (such as Druids, Asatru, Reconstructionists, and many, many others) would really have no chance whatsoever of ever meeting the BSA requirments for a religious emblem. CoG has tried to make their curriculum as generically Pagan as they can, but it is still an Earth-centered curriculum, and not all Pagans are even Earth-centered.

 

The problem I see is that the BSA wants to control the curricula offered by religious organizations, when what they should be doing is trusting each religion to come up with a curriculum appropriate to THAT RELIGION. BSA should butt out of the religious emblem program entirely, IMO, and not have a list of "approved" emblems. Either allow them all, or allow none.

 

So while I have experienced that the BSA *tolerates* Pagan members, I certainly have not felt *supported* or *fully accepted* outside of my local unit.

[ASM915]

adc,

Can you reference

"THEY (the Native Amer.) DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS."?

Inless you talk with some of the really oldtimers or some of the really hardcore shaman, most do believe. They do believe in God, as they put it, but never knew he had a name until us Eurocentric's showed up for the land grab. Oh boy, here I go again!! As a Deleware/Cherokee friend of mine once said, "I'm so conflicted. One side of me hates the other side of me."

I know some of the tribal shamans in some of the more isolated tribes and Rez.'s have a very strong influence over their tribes and and try to get their peolpe to not convert to the whitemans religion. But when the peolpe saw that a lot of their old stories parallel the ancient stories of the prodominate religions, (unworldly visitors, dreams and visions), they had the wisdom to see that most religions have a common begnning

Having been to rhe Rez. a few times for POWWOW, the Powwow is always opened with a prayer to The Great Spirit Grandfather,Son and Holy Spirit.

[ASM915]

Well put DanKroh. Could CoG have a parallel criteria for the Non-Earth Based religions like the Catholics do for the Roman Catholic Rite And the Eastern Orthodox Rites? Both could cover all the general principles of the religion and then each, the specific differences between them. Short of like the original premise of the God and Country before the Protestant decided to make individual awards denomination specific to align with their doctrine.

Maybe the Pagans could come up with a Pagan faith awareness award.

The Catholic Church had some many different Rites, Roman, Orthodox, Eastern, etc. that they came up with the International Awareness Award. Do two of the following:

1)Conversed with people of the different Rites,

2) Talk with someone from another country or who has traveled and lived in another country about the cultural differences in how the religion is practiced

3) Learned a scouting and a religious phrase in the language of the other Rite

4) If poss. attended a Mass of another Rite or in a different language

5) Earn the Citz. in the World MB

6) Earn the Interpreter Strip

 

There's nothing wrong with teaching diversity.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Tervorum, your UU example is actually an example of how BAD the BSA/UU relationship has become.

 

The UUSO is NOT recognized as an affiliate organization by the Unitarian Universalist Association board of trustees:

http://www.uua.org/news/scouts/050316_statement.html

 

The BSA appears to be shunning the real UU organization in favor of an unrecognized splinter group, so they can pat themselves on the back and pretend everything is all right now.