Under One God...but who's God?

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Hi, Hunt. For the most part I agree with you.

But I do have two points of difference:

 

QUOTE - "Therefore, just as the Jewish child or the Hindu child in this troop merely silently endures the prayers to Jesus, ..."

 

I would contend that if the unit is open to boys of all faiths, then nobody should have to "silently endure prayers to Jesus". Within Scouting, no boy should be a 2nd class citizen - regardless of any majorities or type of Charter Org.

 

QUOTE "... is the idea that Scouting is really all about camping and having fun. "

 

I think that is exactly the idea most people have about scouting = camping + fun + good deeds. Is the BSA really upfront enough about the religious aspects of membership? (for the boys, at any rate - leaders are a different matter)

 

We live in a society where "NONE" is a valid religious choice, and most people who choose "NONE" still think of themselves as moral, upstanding people. And as moral, upstanding people, many atheist parents would probably think a program of "camping + fun + good deeds" is a good place for their son.

 

In which case - who tells these atheist parents in no uncertain terms that their son shouldn't (or can't) join? Who tells them upfront that "NONE" is not a valid choice in BSA? Or do we wait until the boy is up for his Eagle?

 

I don't remember anything being said about religious beliefs when my son joined his troop - but maybe that was because he crossed over from Cubs; it could be something discussed with families new to Scouting.

 

Let the stone throwing begin!

 

NC

[adc294]

You know, this is why I left this forum once before. The concept of this thread is: "If we are one (nation) under God, whose God would that be?

 

In all respect to your individual beliefs, I had hoped that the posters on this thread would stick to that topic. Unfortunately, there are those of you whom have your own personal agendas and therefore like to monopolize all media for the broadcast of that agenda...

 

I personally do not care if you worship God or not, I do care that strength of the Nation I live in is being undermined by having unpopular personal beliefs forced upon me whether I like them or not. I believe that the Boy Scouts of America stand for something and that if you wish to be a member, follow the majority; if not you can belong to a Scouting movement in another country where your beliefs are accepted.

 

I am not a zealot for either side of this issue, but one thing stands out in my mind: forcing me to accept your side of the issue (any issue)is like forcing you to accept mine. If you don't want to support what my organization stands for, please don't disrupt it.

 

Now, this is a Boy Scout forum...so "one nation under God" does not actually fit here but "one organization under God" does. While I would not conciously discredit a boy for his personal beliefs, I would use all mine to show those boys the importance of respect for those differences. Acceptance doesn't always come easily or for that matter at all. Learn to live with it, this is America.

 

I never understood why a democracy like ours didn't follow the majority rule concept...that's because we are not a democracy, we are a republic by representation. One representative can vote for the minority of his constituents if he so desires, majority doesn't rule.

 

Now, can we get back to the origional subject? Sorry if I offended anyone.

[packsaddle]

adc294, I am confused by your post. I attempted to offer an answer to Scouting Mom for her question. I'm uncertain as to why she asked it but it certainly has been asked many times in these forums. But mostly I'm perplexed as to what your intentions were in starting this thread if discussion of this topic was the reason you left the forums in the past? Or have I misinterpreted something?

 

You evidently are aware of past discussions. You must have known that this thread would attract similar discussions. I don't understand your frustration, the thread seems to have gone on a perfectly natural and predictable path.

 

Hunt, I asked how the discrimination benefits the boys and you responded, "To me, the simple answer to this is not everybody can belong to every club, even if his peer group belongs...." I didn't see an answer to my question. Please identify how discrimination is of benefit to the boys. The way I interpret what you wrote is, "Tough luck" or "BSA, love it or leave it". Is this what you meant to communicate?

[LongHaul]

adc294,

Unless you can accept that some forum members have personal agendas and dont allow facts or truth to get in their ways; unless you can accept that any thread is subject to being hi jacked as easily as a 60s era jet flying south, then youll probably end up leave us again. We are a diverse group even when it comes to scouting principles and how to interpret written policies. When facts and arguments cant be dealt with, twisting the definitions of terms is a popular tool. A very good brand of Scotch, back in the 60s, had For the Discriminating Man as its slogan. Today the very word carries a negative connotation even though most of us practice it daily. I always told my sons and every member of our troop to stay away from drug users, alcohol users, gang members and similarly minded individuals. This is by definition discrimination but we tend to ignore that fact. One Nation under God.but whos God? why do we have to choose? Ever consider the possibility that God is the same God for everyone, we just use different names. We decide that God expects certain things from us, usually based on what we have been taught or what we have learned others thought based on their writings. Doesnt change reality either way, just how we perceive reality. Our Nation isnt being torn apart by God its being torn apart by man. People who havent accepted that killing everyone who doesnt think like you do doesnt have any effect on the validity of your beliefs.

LongHaul

P.S. In Scouting, because are religiously diverse we must accept certain restraints. If the group you are in is NOT all of one faith then naming God is inappropriate. Calling upon a particular diety is inappropriate. When there is the slightest doubt don't name names.

[adc294]

packsaddle,

 

The concept of this thread is not the reason I left the forum before. I left because many of those posting, beat their personal opinions to death. I don't think that it gets anywhere and I guess moreover, I don't think that the majority should be forced to accept the opinion of the minority. Sure, sometimes change is good, the world changes contantly. If it hadn't been for Nixon going to China (he built his career on being anti-communist), Wal-Mart wouldn't be selling the junk they do (and making us smile when we do).

 

I think that it is appropriate for groups to choose their courses without the threat of being forced to accept unpopular beliefs of others.

 

You and I don't know each other but I think that we could be friends despite our differences...it's called respect.

 

Long Haul...

 

Yes, it still doesn't make it right.

 

I was involved in organizing an OA Sectional years ago. I was asked to say blessing before lunch. Being Catholic, I naturally said a prayer which included reference to Jesus Christ. After the prayer, a leader of Hebrew faith approached me and said "I thought this was a non-denominational thing." He was right of course, and I haven't made that mistake since.

 

If the Scout Oath requires us to do our duty to God, how can an atheist do that? I personally don't think that we can hold some of the members to one oath and others to another.

 

I choose to stick with God because I don't think that I could have developed the character I have without His (or Her)guidance, and the guidance of my family whom also believed.

[ASM915]

acd294,

What would it take to petition National to add 1 word to the Scout Oath. That simple two letter word would put an end to this question? The word would be an additional "MY". We already have "DUTY TO MY COUNTRY". Let's just add the additional "MY to "do my duty to MY GOD, and my country." This way no one has to wonder to whose God they are paying homage to. By saying "MY GOD", then they are being dutiful to only to the God of their repected religion, and if "MY GOD" means no God to them, so be it. This way no one is being forced to except any belief other than their own.

WHAT SAY THE YE AND WHAT SAY THE MASSES? DO WE START A PETITION DRIVE OR NOT?

[adc294]

ASM915, I think your idea is a good one with one glitch: that duty to my God couldn't possibly mean duty to no God. You either believe in God or not. Those of us who do, believe that those of you who don't will suffer eternal damnation. How can the two possibly mix? Once again I say don't join an organization unless you support it's premises.

[packsaddle]

adc294 wrote, "You and I don't know each other but I think that we could be friends despite our differences...it's called respect."

Fella, I agree. From my side this is true for everyone who posts here. After all, what good is a squabble if it can't happen among friends?

 

ASM915, A petition? Oooooooh, this sounds like civil disobedience...count me in!

[GernBlansten]

I like the idea, but it doesn't cover all permutations.

We don't want to exclude the Buddhists, Wiccans, Pagans and Hindis.

How about Duty to My God(s)(dess)(desses)

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

adc294, currently it's permissible for a Boy Scout to be a Deist and/or believe in some sort of 'prime mover' that is completely unconcerned about humans, and thus that Boy Scout would have absolutely no duties towards that god, because his god doesn't even care about humans.

 

So why would it be unacceptable for an atheist to, likewise, have no duties to a god? Or, alternatively, why is the Deist's god acceptable?

[ASM915]

adc,

I got mt ashes yesterday. How about you?

I assume that "those of you who don't" was just an exprassion and not necessarliy aim at mio? I guess playing DEVILS ADVOCATE can lead someone to think I have different values when actually I'm right there with you.

Okay, we'll change the phrase to MY GOD ( IF I HAVE ONE). ana ddition of 5 words. Hows that work for you?

And GB, ess or esses, what ever works.

Packsaddle, Know anyone in Texas?

[ASM915]

GB, a question for you.

The Hindis and Buddhist have a Scouting Religious award, how come the Druids, Wiccans and Pagans don't?

Merlyn, How about one for the ATHIESTS? It could be 4 months of course work on disproving GOD. If they can disprove God ,then they get the Award.

[adc294]

Folks,

I am not pointing fingers at anyone...I'ld have to do that to myself first.

 

What do you suppose will happen if The Ford Motor Company dies? It's an American institution. Likewise, the Boy Scouts of America is an institution. It is what it stands for. It has done well for nearly a hundred years. Whre will the U.S. be if Ford, Boy Scouts and all other institutions die?

 

Sorry, I for one swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. I see the U.S. as larger than that.

 

Got swamped yesterday and forgot about ashes...I've asked my God to forgive me.

 

By the way, off the subject...you all should take the Myers-Briggs personality test...you will learn a lot about yourselves and how your personality works with others...I play "Devil's Advocate" often too.

[GernBlansten]

Don't know. But the Druids I interact with could never get organized enough to compile the requirements.

 

You can't prove a negative. So the athiest award would be unachievable.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

ASM915, you may be interested to know that a Wiccan group met all the requirements for a Wiccan religious award - so the BSA changed the rules to insure that NO Wiccan award is ever approved:

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/uua-re.html

 

And why should atheists have to 'prove' that no gods exist for their award? Theists never prove their gods exist.