Under One God...but who's God?

[packsaddle]

A cartoon appeared on my bulletin board outside my office last year. It think it's from New Yorker. Two ladies in black are standing in front of a grave. Some student (I think) put my name on the gravestone. Anyway the widow says to the other lady, "I told him it wouldn't kill him to try to be nice once in a while, but I was wrong."

 

Welcome back, Bubbabear! Oops, I mean 'adc294', wink, wink.

[adc294]

Thanks Packsaddle...

That reminds me of the two lady golfers who work there way up to the third green along side the road. While the one is about to putt, she notices a funeral procession coming down the road along side the golf course. She stops what she is doing and takes off her hat, bows her head in respect and waits until the procession passes. She then puts on her hat and lays a twenty footer into the cup. "Good Lord!" her friend quips, I never knew you were that respectful!"

"It's the least I could do, Betty. After all I was married to him for thirty five years!"

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hey Ed, I know you can't learn things, but my remarks were about WOSM and scouting in other countries - scouting isn't a private organization in all other countries; in some, scouting is essentially a government program. And, of course, some countries have nondiscrimination laws that apply even to private organizations.

[OldGreyEagle]

The husband comes home from playing golf, he is sweaty, rumpled and generally in poor shape. His wife looks at him and says "Darling you look awful", he replies, " it was the worst, Harry had a heart attack on the first hole" the wife replies, "How horrible for you", the husband replies "Tell me about it, it was hit the shot, drag Harry for 18 holes"

[evmori]

Yeah I know that Merlyn. And maybe some countries they don't have any discrimination laws!

 

If you were more concerned with something that mattered like human rights then someone would care.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Scouting Mom]

I've always been curious why an atheist would choose to join an organization or to have their child join an organization that requires them to say an oath to do duty to God. How do you explain to the child the discrepency in swearing duty to something that they believe doesn't exist?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, countries that don't have nondiscrimination laws don't somehow magically balance out countries that do.

 

See if you can follow along:

1) In Thailand, scouting is part of the government school system

2) Thailand's constitution "...states that discrimination against a person on the grounds of "a difference in religious belief" shall not be permitted" according to the US State department.

It's also one of the founding members of WOSM.

 

Of course, you couldn't see where public school charters were a problem in THIS country when I first posted about it in this forum six years ago.

 

Scouting Mom, some packs & troops allow atheists to not promise to do a duty to god. When I was in the cub scouts, I never said it, and nobody cared. At my age (9 or 10, I think), I knew that 'so help me god' was optional in being sworn in as president or in court, and I knew that I could skip 'under god' in the pledge, so I figured this was the same kind of thing. Nobody in the cub scout pack I joined said I couldn't omit it, and they didn't say atheists couldn't join.

[adc294]

I'm not sure I understand how aetheism can be a religious belief.

 

OGE...you're a good man.

[packsaddle]

"I've always been curious why an atheist would choose to join an organization or to have their child join an organization that requires them to say an oath to do duty to God. How do you explain to the child the discrepency in swearing duty to something that they believe doesn't exist?"

 

Scouting Mom, if that was all there was to the issue, I suspect you wouldn't need to ask the question. As they say in the commercials, "...but wait, there's more..."

 

There are many reasons for concern about the membership requirements, and not just whether an atheist parent would want their child to join BSA.

First, as Merlyn can elaborate, BSA often benefits from special subsidies that are connected to tax dollars. This is illegal and many in these forums have demonized the ACLU for kicking BSA's butt in court, regarding this issue. This relates to membership. If BSA collects these subsidies, then they should not be able to legally discriminate against atheists on the basis of religious beliefs. I ask the question, who benefits from this discrimination?

 

Another concern arises from a more personal problem. A boy often will develop a peer group. If he invites one of his friends to join his club and the friend is subsequently rejected by the club because his religious beliefs don't conform to standards, then both boys have been negatively impacted by this discrimination. Again, I ask, how did this discrimination benefit either boy?

 

One aspect of your question has to do with choice. For all practical purposes, BSA has a monopoly on scouting for boys in this country. It is chartered by Congress and the monopoly is jealously defended in court by BSA. There simply may not be other good choices for a parent who is not willing to wink at a requirement to believe in supernatural forces. As implied by Merlyn, some units do pay little attention to this requirement, leaving the decision up to the parent.

 

I suggest from personal observation and conversation with atheist parents, that they recognize the reality of their lives and the back-of-the-bus status they are given because of their beliefs. They know their children must also learn this reality and learn how to live with it if the children are to live in this society. Therefore, just as the Jewish child or the Hindu child in this troop merely silently endures the prayers to Jesus, so does the child who does not recognize supernatural forces. And then they ALL go camping and have fun. BSA doesn't have to be so divisive in society - they choose to be.

[ASM915]

OGE,

He must have really love his golf buddy to drag him 18 holes. I thought that was what the sand traps where for, quick and easy burial. Golf clubs? Golf buddy? Golf Clubs? Golf buddy? GOLF CLUBS!!

[emb021]

Merlyn- you make the mistake in thinking that how things are in the US are how things are in other countries.

 

The fact is, in many countries/cultures, everyone follows some religious belief. There are pretty much few, if any, atheists, and those that are there have little political clout to make an issue of things like this.

 

As to your example. I am sure there are other atheist kids who do this (same for some gay kids). Those who don't make an issue of things don't get bothered. Its those who feel they need to make an issue that get kicked out, etc.

 

Nobody in the Pack said you couldn't omit it because they probably didn't think they needed to point that out or were aware that you were doing so.

 

[evmori]

Ed, countries that don't have nondiscrimination laws don't somehow magically balance out countries that do.

 

I hope this isn't based on a list you put together, Merlyn, since your fact gathering is suspect.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[GernBlansten]

Packsaddle brings up a great point. Who benefits from denying athiests membership? Just think if we denied membership to obese scouts and scouters. Using the same oath that is used to deny athiests, one could exclude the obese

On my honor,. . . . To keep myself physically strong, . . .

Take care of your body so that it will serve you well for an entire lifetime. That means eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep, and exercising regularly to build strength and endurance. it also means avoiding harmful drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and anything else that can harm your health.

Now would that be right? I don't think so. I think scouting offers boys a program to achieve physical fitness and develop lifelong healthy habits. Scouting also offers a program to help boys achieve spiritual fitness. Too bad we don't allow athiests boys the same opportunities we do obese ones. 

[Hunt]

This has been hashed out many times here before, but I think the way Packsaddle has stated the arguments is measured, and I'd like to react to them point by point:

 

"There are many reasons for concern about the membership requirements, and not just whether an atheist parent would want their child to join BSA.

First, as Merlyn can elaborate, BSA often benefits from special subsidies that are connected to tax dollars. This is illegal and many in these forums have demonized the ACLU for kicking BSA's butt in court, regarding this issue. This relates to membership. If BSA collects these subsidies, then they should not be able to legally discriminate against atheists on the basis of religious beliefs. I ask the question, who benefits from this discrimination?"

 

To some extent, I agree with this argument. Accepting public benefits muddies the waters when BSA also claims to be a private organization. However, the extent of the "subsidies" is greatly exaggerated. In a few cities, there are low-cost leases, and these are the subject of lawsuits. The many units that were chartered by public schools actually drew very little in the way of public funds (in many cases the flow of benefits was in the other direction). BSA has instructed all those units to find private sponsors, and the vast majority have done so. The remaining "subsidies" are minimal compared to the size of the whole organization, and the courts will deal with them on a case-by-case basis. In terms of judicial butt-kicking between BSA and ACLU, I would call it basically even, with the ACLU winning a few cases related to public support, and BSA winning pretty big in the Dale case in the Supreme Court on its ability to maintain its membership limitations.

 

"Another concern arises from a more personal problem. A boy often will develop a peer group. If he invites one of his friends to join his club and the friend is subsequently rejected by the club because his religious beliefs don't conform to standards, then both boys have been negatively impacted by this discrimination. Again, I ask, how did this discrimination benefit either boy?"

 

To me, the simple answer to this is not everybody can belong to every club, even if his peer group belongs. As I've mentioned before, I can't join the VFW even if they have the coolest pool table in town, and even if some of my buddies are members. While the VFW's "discrimination" against non-veterans doesn't benefit me, it does benefit them because it's an organization for people with a shared experience. The same is true of a church's confirmation class, or the bar mitzvah class at the local temple--membership is limited in these groups, because you have to share the beliefs of the group in order to participate. That's true of Scouting, too. The problem is that some people don't seem to perceive the "Duty to God" element of Scouting to be a core shared value--they seem to think that it's a fun camping club, primarily, and that therefore it's unfair to exclude somebody over something that seems tangential. But BSA, and many of its members don't think it's tangential at all--and the organization gets to decide what is "core" and what isn't.

 

"One aspect of your question has to do with choice. For all practical purposes, BSA has a monopoly on scouting for boys in this country. It is chartered by Congress and the monopoly is jealously defended in court by BSA. There simply may not be other good choices for a parent who is not willing to wink at a requirement to believe in supernatural forces. As implied by Merlyn, some units do pay little attention to this requirement, leaving the decision up to the parent."

 

The Congressional Charter doesn't really provide anything more than trademark protection. There is no monopoly on the program elements of Scouting--anybody can start a similar organization with a different name. Another analogy: If I am a Methodist, and move to a town where everybody is a Baptist, what am I to do? I can join the Baptist Church and "wink" at the doctrinal differences. It may not be practical for me to start a Methodist church there, but it's not "unfair" for the Baptists to have their own beliefs and practices.

 

"I suggest from personal observation and conversation with atheist parents, that they recognize the reality of their lives and the back-of-the-bus status they are given because of their beliefs. They know their children must also learn this reality and learn how to live with it if the children are to live in this society. Therefore, just as the Jewish child or the Hindu child in this troop merely silently endures the prayers to Jesus, so does the child who does not recognize supernatural forces. And then they ALL go camping and have fun. BSA doesn't have to be so divisive in society - they choose to be."

 

BSA didn't choose to be "divisive." BSA from day one was a program with certain elements, and "Duty to God" was one of them. Maintaining this element is no more "divisive" than the Catholic Church maintaining its doctrines. Again, the flaw in this argument, in my opinion, is the idea that Scouting is really all about camping and having fun.

 

In sum, when you set aside the issue of government support, there simply is nothing unfair about the form of discrimination that BSA practices. It's a tough break for those who don't meet the membership criteria, certainly--especially if they live in an area in which Scouting is popular. I also don't mind arguments that BSA should change its requirements in some ways (I think it should change some of them)--but it's not enough to argue that there is discrimination.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

emb021, first, you seem to imply that any minority that is small enough can be ignored. Second, I doubt there is any country in the world with zero atheists (except, possibly, Vatican City), though many won't speak up in countries like Saudi Arabia where they would be subject to the death penalty. And third, there is a large a growing atheist population in western Europe, so it's hardly a non-issue there. Check uk.rec.scouting on atheist debates sometime.

 

Ed, your latest screed is even more incoherent than usual.

 

Hunt, the BSA clearly practices discrimination. I don't know why you keep trying to avoid the word. A group that said Jews (and only Jews) couldn't join would be described as discriminatory. Atheists are no different.

 

As for one more example of why an atheist would be in scouting, what about someone who has been in scouting since age 8 and who becomes an atheist at age 16?