Under One God...but who's God?

[Trevorum]

John,

 

With all respect, I assume that you do know that you're worshipping the wrong god?

 

 

No? Well, that's definitely the message that you give to others.

 

 

No offense is intended here, just a perspective.

[Gunny2862]

I think adc294 may have left the building but his question actually may pose another one...

as read "Under one God... but who is God?" which we really haven't touched. And the reading we have been taking so far it appears to me,"Under one God... but whose God?"

 

The thing is that the first question, which we haven't dealt with - presuming one acknowledges a God, could be an inclusive excerise. But I have already shown that it inherently DISCRIMINATES against a group by leaving them out of the discussion - why would they even want to talk about the non-existent being - unless they also enjoy discussions regarding unicorns, etc.

 

And it is clear that not only do some of us believe that some organizations legitimately practice discrimination, the VFW I think has already been cited. But when entering the discussion some religious beliefs require the discrimination not necessarily against other beliefs but of the gods of those beliefs as as been shown by John-in-KC. This shouldn't mean that we are to have less than fully courteous behavior towards or less than full tolerance of those who believe differently than we do but in some cases it might mean that one's belief system might preclude endorsing that same belief system.

 

And on the topic of the loaded word "Discrimination" we discriminate all of the time - "That's poison, this (in limited quantities) is water." See I just discriminated at least twice in one sentence. Discrimination is at some levels simply deciding that there are at least two states to one thing or, two or more things.

Yes, there is clearly the discrimination where people are (discriminate and insert your choice here "unfairly or illegally") kept from doing things others are "allowed" to do.

But it is also disingenuous to raise the red herring of being unPC just because one uses or avoids the word. It's good debate if the judges and your opponents don't catch it but are we debating or discussing?

[SSScout]

Once more into the breech, dear friends...

 

My stint as a Chaplain at the '05 Jamboree was very rewarding and educational. I was most gratified to see men (and women) of various faiths (no Presbeyterians for some reason) working together to help each others faith. Catholics and Methodists help set up worship space for Muslims. Quaker and Jew went to visit the Scouts in the hospital. Mennonite and Greek Orthodox took water to the Troops. I did notice some gnashing of teeth among a few when Icons were transported for Orthodox services and it was interesting when the Quakers asked the Episcopals to turn down their PA during Sunday services because it was really loud from across Fish Hook Lake. (turned out the facilities crew had put the amplifier in a locked box and it couldn't be touched! But the E's just stood further back from the mike, so it worked out).

 

'Course, if what this thread is trying to do is DEFINE God, well, I don't think the thread is/will be long enough.

 

Everyone chooses a religion/belief based on three factors: Their family's basis, their own experience, the outside world's influence.And the old saw about there being no athiests in fox holes probably isn't true at face value. Everyone finds their own way to or away from G(g)od as they must and as circumstances dictate. But I try to testify about the truth of my experience as best I can to them that ask me.

 

 

From B-P::::

""Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for

oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every

form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies

with every sect and denomination. What sect or

denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents'

wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect

their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence,

whatever form of religion the boy professes.

There may be many difficulties relating to the definition of the

religious training in our Movement where so many different

denominations exist, and the details of the expression of duty to God

have, therefore, to be left largely in the hands of the

local authority. But there is no difficulty at all in

suggesting the line to take on the human side, since direct duty to

one's neighbour is implied in almost every form of belief.""

(Aids to Scoutmastership, 1919)

 

AND...

 

""By their fruits ye shall know them""

AND...

 

"The humble, meek, merciful, just, pious, and devout souls are everywhere of one religion; and when death has taken off the mask they will know one another, though the diverse liveries they wear here make them strangers."

 

= William Penn =

 

"It is a sad Reflection, that many Men hardly have any Religion at all;

and most Men have none of their own:

For that which is the Religion of their Education, and not of their Judgement,

is the Religion of Another, and not Theirs."

 

==William Penn==

 

from "The Fruits of Solitude"

 

As a nascent UC, I have been given the assignment to help with the formation of 2 Cub Packs, a Scout Troop and Venture Crew at two Muslim Centers/Associations. The CRs assure me they see nothing in conflict between the goals and vision and methods of Scouting and the Q'ran. Pray for us...

 

YiS

 

 

[adc294]

I haven't left the building, Gunny... I like to follow the wisdon of Abraham Lincoln who said: "It is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt", and: "Never argue with a fool because innocent bystanders won't be able to tell who is who".

 

I am glad that my question has stirred such debate, but the question stil remains: "Under One God...but Whose God"? From my perspective, many here have no clue. Most wouldn't recognize him if he (or she) stood right in front of them. I guess we will know at some point in time...or will we?

 

Religion is a man-made thing. Many of our beliefs have been twisted from day one, and still are. How can any of you say you know God? How arrogant!

[packsaddle]

adc294, I hope you don't consider the members of the forum to be fools. I think most of us sincerely try to ask and answer honest questions and find solutions to real problems. Besides, I remind you of Matthew 5:22.

 

I will attempt to sincerly answer your questions. You wrote,

"I am glad that my question has stirred such debate, but the question stil remains: "Under One God...but Whose God"? From my perspective, many here have no clue. Most wouldn't recognize him if he (or she) stood right in front of them. I guess we will know at some point in time...or will we?

 

Religion is a man-made thing. Many of our beliefs have been twisted from day one, and still are. How can any of you say you know God? How arrogant!"

 

'Religion' may well be concocted through complex social, economic, and political processes. 'Faith', on the other hand, is unique to each individual and may well be the outcome of some very interesting and unexplained human qualities. Nevertheless it is personal and absolutely unknowable by any other person or group.

Moreover, while the personal belief of one person may be misrepresented by another, the unknowable nature of one person's belief by another makes such misrepresentation inevitable to some extent. To the extent that such 'twisting' is intentional, again that is a social or political action that may be fueled by fear, greed, or prejudice. It does not change the personal belief one bit.

 

In this sense, I agree with you. People are indeed clueless as to the beliefs of others. A person may claim to know a god but it is not possible to confirm this on an independent basis. To ask the question as to who can 'know' any particular god is actually just as pointless...how would anyone else 'know' anyway?

 

This is the basis of my contempt for the DRP. It is idiotic. Not only can no person (certainly not BSA) truly 'know' what is in anyone else's mind, the DRP and the membership policy that follows with it cannot possibly exclude precisely the persons that it purports to intend to exclude - namely, insincere liars who would join for dishonorable reasons.

The DRP and the membership signature is merely a feel-good checkoff that is unnecessary for honorable persons and meaningless to the others.

If your argument is that the DRP and religious membership requirement is a foolish exercise, I quite agree. Have a nice day.

[skeptic]

While I am never quite certain I know God, I am certain that I sense he/she regularly. There have been a few times when the sense was overwhelming, and in the "outing in scouting" environment, little doubt as I generally lie beneath the stars the weather permitting. I try to simply watch for falling or shooting stars, fighting to stay awake long enough to do so. But the still watching of a dark, infinite space reinforces the awe of "something greater" that cannot quite be described, only felt in my own quiet self.

[John-in-KC]

Trev,

 

I will answer you with Paul's words from First Corinthians...

 

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

 

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The larger point is, though, I believe embedded in what ask. It brings me full circle:

 

As a SCOUTER, I am committed that our children grow up inside a faith tradition. I believe that to be a reasonable expectation of those joining Boy Scouts and Venturing in particular. I believe our Scout Camps should provide for worship opportunities. I believe those should be reasonably specific to a young mans' faith. Don't ask a young Muslim to Shabbat. Don't ask a young Orthodox Hebrew to worship in the general Protestant Christian chapel.

 

If a Scout or Scouter asks me what my personal faith is, I will share, as I have here.

 

As to my own worship, the Triune Almighty God has given me guidance in His Word. Please do not ask me to personally accepting of the things God tells me "don't do." I have enough problems with my own sin (and trust me, I truly believe church is a hospital for sinners).

 

Does that make sense?

 

John

[John-in-KC]

Sheesh. I really should get back on a day based circadian rhythm before I try serious writing.

 

I meant to say

The larger point is, though, I believe embedded in what you asked. It brings me full circle:

 

I um a gud spuler and butter grimmarian.

 

John

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Hi JohnInKC,

 

I agree, I don't go for praying to a universal deity either.

 

But, I am careful picking the references I use at scout functions when saying grace, etc. - like "Lord" or "Heavenly Father". To the best of my knowledge, these allow darn near everybody to pray along & mentally equate the reference to their own faith. Perhaps a bit semantically squishy - but it works.

 

In our pack, we don't do a "Scouts Own" on Sunday morning when camping, which makes the religious diversity almost a non-issue. We are big on saying grace at meals and an invocation at most events, though. It is a good thing for the kids (and parents too) to stop for a minute & remember we have a LOT to be thankful for - any day of the week.

 

On a wacky tangent - anybody else remember a Far Side cartoon with a bunch of natives in front of a stone idol & the caption read "Thank Goran it's Friday". Well, I'm prohibited from thanking Goran - but I'm glad it's Friday (albeit 1AM).

 

Shabbat Shalom (Sabbath's peace) to all.

NC

[Gunny2862]

Since I have had my words taken differently than I meant them at least twice so far. I am not saying there that we all must pray to the same deity.

 

I was saying that the discussion could be inclusive...

 

I also like Johns "next to the last" post prior to this one.

[hot_foot_eagle]

I read an interesting article about Mother Teresa's private letters this morning (I'm afraid I can't find the link at the moment).

 

For all her good works, she apparently had serious doubts about the existence of God and agonized privately about her doubts - which brings me to the curious conclusion that, gender issues aside, she might literally become a Saint in the Catholic Church, but based on the DRP, she couldn't be an Eagle Scout.

 

Go figure.

 

 

[TheScout]

If her beliefs were not in line with the DRP she could not be an Eagle Scout.

 

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