Under One God...but who's God?

[adc294]

Things I wonder...(searching for the truth)...

 

I wonder if Scouters in other parts of the world are allowed to worship their concept of God?

 

I wonder if God will allow billions and billions of souls to suffer damnation for not choosing the "right" God?

 

I wonder if all those whom are so adamant about who God really is, will be totally surprised if, on final judgement day, they find out they were wrong?

 

I wonder if it is really necessary to destroy a worthwhile program that is dedicated to the teaching of "the right thing to do", over concepts that no one has final answers to?

 

I wonder if we can truly be "One Nation Under God" unless God is dictated to us?

 

I wonder if a thousand years from now someone will discover these postings and consider them another lost section of the Bible?

 

I wonder if people with other Gods then mine, or even other sects than mine will enjoy God's blessing...

 

I pray that you all do, no matter who you are, what you believe, or where you live in this inconsiderate world.

 

 

[emb021]

"I wonder if Scouters in other parts of the world are allowed to worship their concept of God? "

 

You don't need to wonder. They are allowed.

 

WOSM has documents on their website (don't ask me where, they moved stuff around and I find it hard to find stuff) that explains the concept of 'duty to God'.

 

Briefly, per WOSM:

 

* all scout associations MUST inclued "Duty to God" as part of their Scout Oath.

 

* the phrase to be used is "duty to God". Scouts may not change it or replace it with another.

 

* the phrase, "duty to God" is to be interpreted to mean do YOUR religious duty as YOUR religion dictates, REGARDLESS of what your religion is. There is no list of 'approved' religions. "God" in "duty to God" is NOT to be interpreted solely as the Christian God (or JudeoChristian God, etc), and should be interested to include Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu, etc. ALL such religions are welcome in Scouting, both in the BSA and in the World Brotherhood of Scouting.

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

Always bears repeating...

 

"BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion."

 

 

More to the point,

Not all gods demand to be worshipped.

Not all gods are associated with the concept of "damnation"

Not all gods are judgmental.

Not all gods deal in favors and blessings.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So its my God for me, your God for you, and Charlie's God for Charlie and we respect each other's choice, sounds scoutlike

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Except, of course, for atheists.

 

This will likely bite WOSM eventually, as there are countries that explicitly allow atheists, and countries where it's illegal for that country's scouting program to discriminate against atheists.

[emb021]

"This will likely bite WOSM eventually"

 

WOSM has had that policy in place for some time, and there has been little issue. Realize that this comes from the world body of scouting, in which all scout associations have a say.

 

They have come down on associations who try to drop 'duty to God' or allow for alternatives.

 

"as there are countries that explicitly allow atheists"

 

Which ones? I am not aware of any.

 

"and countries where it's illegal for that country's scouting program to discriminate against atheists"

 

Again, which ones? I am not aware of any.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

emb021 writes:

WOSM has had that policy in place for some time, and there has been little issue. Realize that this comes from the world body of scouting, in which all scout associations have a say.

 

They have come down on associations who try to drop 'duty to God' or allow for alternatives.

 

The Scout Association of the UK (you know, the ones who started all this) explicitly says that NO youth will be refused membership on account of their religious views:

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/eqopps/eo-pol-y.htm

 

The Scout Association is committed to extending Scouting, its Aim and Method to young people in all parts of society.

No young person should receive less favourable Treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:

class;

ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race;

gender;

marital or sexual status;

mental or physical ability;

political or religious belief.

 

 

You can contrast this with the adult "equal opportunity" statement that explicitly says atheists can't be warranted leaders. There is no such exclusion for atheist youth, and an explicit statement that youth will not be discriminated against due to "religious belief".

 

This directly conflicts with any WOSM requirement that youth members must believe in at least one god. Of course, WOSM requirements are also self-contradictory, because they don't seem to understand that nondiscrimination on the basis of creed ("Scouting is open to all, regardless of race or creed, in accordance with the purpose, principles and. method conceived by its founder Robert Baden-Powell...") means that atheists must be included, or their statement "regardless of creed" is simply false.

 

"as there are countries that explicitly allow atheists"

 

Which ones? I am not aware of any.

 

The UK, as shown. Scouts Canada officially states that they don't discriminate on the basis of religious belief. 'God' is optional in the Czech promise.

 

"and countries where it's illegal for that country's scouting program to discriminate against atheists"

 

Again, which ones? I am not aware of any.

 

I'm not aware of any that have gone to court, but some people in uk.rec.scouting think it would be illegal to exclude atheists, either under UK law or EU's human rights laws. Whether it was or wasn't illegal for the BSA to discriminate wasn't decided until 2000, but if another country decides that its scout program can't legally discriminate against atheists, what would happen?

[ASM915]

For a scout to receive his Eagle he has to have a letter of reference from his religious leader. Nothing states a boy can't become a scout because he's athiest. Some have actually come to know a God because of Scouting. The snag on getting Eagle is when the youth declares his atheism.

Our District Adv. person has always told the SM's, if they have a youth where the parents are atheist, but it is unknown of the youths intent, he will sit down and discuss the situation with the youth and get a religious leader to help if the youth so desires.

 

Does anyone know what other national scouting organizations require for their youth to achieve their top rank? Do they require a simular letter?

 

Christian, Judeaism and Islam all have the same God, just different messengers of the word. Some religions are a lot more tolerant of each other then some of the Christian faiths. It's nice to think we can go and convert the whole world to Christianity, but should we push our veiws on others. If it is to be, God will make it happen. Who cares whose God, as long as the values and brotherly love is there.

 

Peace be with you all regardless of your religion.

 

Old Grizzly(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[ASM915]

Seeing that a scout is "Do my duty to God... and help other people at all times", I have an project idea relating to religious and culture awareness.

Has anyone ever heard of the ULSTER PROJECT. It's been around for 30 some years. it is where the Catholic and Protestant youth of N. Ireland are brought together for a month to promote peace between the two religious cultures.

I just read an article in OUTSIDE magazine about William Beck, a retired Naval officer who went to Iraq a few years back. He thought what better way to promote peace then throught Scouting. During his reseach he found that Iraq had a thriving Scouting movement before Saddam. He has been attemping to restart the program with some success.

In keeping with Mr. Beck's idea and the philosophy of the ULSTER PROJECT, would anyone be interested in helping put together a parallel project involving Shii and Sunni youth out of the Iraqi Scouing Movement? It's off the wall but would make an excellent SCOUTS OF THE WORLD/YOUTH OF THE WORLD project promoting peace and religious tolerance.

[Pint]

This is taken from the UK Scoutbase website:

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/eqopps/eo-rel-y.htm

 

******************************************************************

Equal Opportunities Policy: Guidelines with reference to Young People: Religious belief

1. Policy

 

No young person should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of, his or her religious belief.

 

2. Scouting Principles

 

The Aim of The Scout Association is to promote the development of young people so that they can achieve their full physical, intellectual, social and spiritual potentials. A belief in the spiritual aspect of human beings and a belief in a spiritual power greater than any human being is fundamental to World Scouting.

 

This belief is demonstrated by young people when they make their Promise. As Scouting, both in the United Kingdom and world-wide, is open to followers of all faiths the wording of the Promise takes into account the different religious obligations of the Association's Members. Therefore, a young person can promise to do his or her duty 'to God' (suitable for most faiths, including Christians, Jews and Sikhs), 'to my Dharma' (Hindu and Buddhist) or 'to Allah' (Orthodox Muslim).

 

To enable young people to grow into independent adults the Scout Method encourages young people to question what they have been taught. Scouts and Venture Scouts who question God's existence, their own spirituality or the structures and beliefs of any or all religions are simply searching for spiritual understanding. This notion of a search for enlightenment is compatible with belief in most of the world's faiths. It is unacceptable to refuse Membership, or question a young person's suitability to continue to participate fully in a Section, if they express doubts about the meaning of the Promise.

 

As a multi-faith organisation, Scout Leaders and other Volunteers need to consider the religious observances practised by all Members of their Section, Group or District. The planning and the delivery of the programme should take into account the prayer and worship, dietary requirements and behavioural rules as practised by all those participating in the programme.

 

3. Restrictions to youth Membership on the basis of religious belief

 

It is not acceptable to deny entry to, or persuade a young person to leave, the Movement because of his or her religious beliefs.

 

However, the Religious Policy of the Association prohibits Membership to anyone who denies the spiritual side of human beings or the existence of a spiritual power greater than any human being. It may also be acceptable to ask a young person to leave the Movement if:

 

* the young person is putting unfair pressure on other young people to conform to a particular set of beliefs or to join another faith community (in such case 'unfairness' needs to be judged by the effect of that pressure on other members);

* the young person expresses their beliefs in a way that is in conflict with the fundamental principles of the Association.

 

The Scout Association permits places of worship, schools and other community based organisations to sponsor Scout Groups and some limit their Membership to young people associated with the Sponsoring Authority. These Groups are an important part of Scouting, and complement other local Groups who offer Membership to all local young people, whether they are associated with places of worship, schools and other local organisations or not.

 

4. Problems for Commissioners

 

1.

All the Groups in a District are sponsored by or associated with one faith, therefore a young person of a different faith is denied access to Scouting.

 

In such case, Commissioners should first ensure that there is not a suitable Group - either an existing multi-faith Group or a Group which is willing to become a multi-faith Group. If there is not a suitable Group, then Commissioners could approach the young person s community to sponsor a new Group or encourage the District to develop an unsponsored multi-faith Group.

 

2.

A Leader does not allow young people with different beliefs or practices to himself or herself to join the Section.

 

Commissioners should first provide training and discussion sessions for Leaders to enable them to run a multi-faith Section. Commissioners can also help the Group to recruit new Leaders from other faiths not currently represented.

 

3.

A Leader is seriously concerned about a religious practice that a young person has shown an interest in, either because it appears to be a cult or because of the effect it is having on that young person's life.

 

Leaders should talk the situation through with a colleague and get advice from the Scouting Values Department at Headquarters. The Leader should discuss his or her informed concerns with the young person and his or her family.

 

4.

Religious leaders associated with a Group (usually as a Sponsoring Authority) complain that a decision made by the Scout Leaders, or the way the Leaders run the Group, are not acceptable.

 

This situation can be avoided by ensuring that a Sponsoring Authority is clearly briefed on the Policy and Rules of the Association before an agreement is made, and kept up to date on any changes. However, where this situation does occur, Commissioners should first determine the issue which forms the basis of the complaint. They can then mediate a discussion on that issue, and that issue alone, with both the Sponsoring Authority and the Leaders.

 

5.

Leaders fail to recognise the diversity of faith and religious practices of Members in their programme.

 

This could be shown by closing every meeting by saying the Lord's Prayer or always using a standard camp menu which does not have Kosher, vegetarian or Halal options. Solutions must be based on discussion with the Leadership with additional training on the Association's policy on spiritual development and the multi-faith nature of the Movement. Commissioners should also help Leaders find alternatives, for example different ways to close a meeting, multi-cultural recipes.

 

5. References and Resources

Further Information

 

1.

Further information on religious belief is available from the Scouting Values Department and the National Chaplaincy Team at Gilwell Park, or from your County Chaplaincy Team.

 

2.

Advice about acceptable and unacceptable faiths and cults is offered by the Scout Values Department at Headquarters.

 

3.

Information on local faith communities is usually available in local libraries and places of worship. The Inter-faith Directory gives contact information on local associations or branches of national organisations who will give information on specific faiths. Your Local Education Authority, and the Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education (SACRE), will also be able to tell you how religious education is taught in your local schools.

 

4.

Alternative wording of the Promise for different faiths is given in Rule 1.1 in Policy, Organisation and Rules.

 

Resources

 

1.

Fact sheets on Scouting and faith communities, currently Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist and Rastafari, are available from the Scout Information Centre or from the Scouting Values Department.

 

2.

The SHAP Working Party on World Religions in Education publishes an annual calendar of festivals which will list the appropriate dates for a particular year. The calendar is available from the SHAP Working Party, c/o National Societies RE Centre, 36 Causton Street, London SW1P 4AU. Tel. 020 7932 1194.

 

3.

The Equal Opportunities Policy Case Studies includes examples of religious beliefs held by young people in Scouting. The Pack is available from the Scout Information Centre.

 

4.

God are You still in There looks at spiritual development within Scouting. The pack is available from Scottish Headquarters.

 

Within the Equal Opportunities Policy a 'Young Person' refers to someone participating in the youth programme. It should be noted that it is therefore possible for a Young Person to be older than an 'Adult' and for an individual to be both a Young Person and an Adult

*************************************************************

 

This details the variations in the wording of 'Duty to God' to take into account different beleifs:

(source ) http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/por/2006/1_5.htm

----------------------------------------

POR: Chapter 1: Fundamentals of Scouting

Rule 1.1: Variations to the wording of the Promises

AMENDMENT: Minor change in wording of (d), and addition of (f) Nov 2006

 

1. Scouting is open to all faiths and must therefore take account of the different religious obligations of its Members while upholding the essential spirit of the Promise.

 

2. In each Promise the phrase 'Duty to God' or, in the case of Beaver Scouts, 'to love God', is suitable for most faiths (including Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims and Sikhs).

 

3. Hindus may use either the words 'my Dharma' or 'God'.

 

4. Muslims may use the word 'Allah' in place of 'God'.

 

5. Buddhists should use only the words 'my Dharma'.

 

6. Muslims may use the phrase .In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. in place of .On my honour. when making the Promise.

 

7. Where some other form of wording is required for a member of a particular faith or religion advice should be sought from Headquarters.

 

8. Similarly it is accepted that foreign residents who may become Members of the Association owe allegiance to their own country.

 

9. To meet these circumstances the phrase 'duty to The Queen' should be replaced by the phrase 'duty to the country in which I am now living'.

 

10. In the case of Beaver Scouts, Cub Scouts and Scouts the decision as to which permitted form of wording should be used in any particular case will be made by the Group Scout Leader in consultation with the parents of the young person concerned.

 

11. In the case of Explorer Scouts, Scout Network members and adults the decision as to which permitted form of wording should be used in any particular case will be made by the District or County Commissioner as appropriate in consultation with the person concerned. -----------------------------------------

 

theres also some factsheets (pdf) that cover most relegiious situations here: http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/

Scroll down to the Development section.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums, adc294. I commend the search for truth. In practice (and regulations notwithstanding) you'll find a great variety of thoughts on this subject among scouters. While I maintain that religious beliefs are personal and not subject to examination by BSA (or anyone else), I think you are engaged in a healthy exercise by asking the questions you ask. I also caution you to apply the same critical view to your own thoughts as well as to the thoughts of others. And above all else, try to maintain a sense of humor.

[GernBlansten]

For a scout to receive his Eagle he has to have a letter of reference from his religious leader.

Not true. Our council allows a parent to substitute the letter of reference with their own. Many religious beliefs have no leadership to write such a letter. Also, it's been discussed here that the letters of reference are indeed not required at all, but requested.

[Trevorum]

Gern is correct. There is NO NATONAL POLICY that requires an Eagle candidate to obtain a letter of reference (or even to merely list such a reference) from a religious leader. Some council advancement people may institute their own additional requirements, but this is in error and would be reversed upon appeal to National. The Eagle application SUGGESTS such a reference (to assist in verifying the character of the candidate) but does not require one.

 

ASM915 states "It's nice to think we can go and convert the whole world to Christianity ... ". Right. Well, I for one don't think that would be nice at all.

[ASM915]

Gentlemen,

I stand corrected on 1 point. On further research, yes, one parent may write a letter as the religious leader for the boy, but according to the packet directions there still has to be 6 letters of recommendation. No where does it say optional.

 

Trevotum,

I have no problems with someone disagreeing with me, but please quote the whole phrase so others know the real meaning. I was not advocating converting the whole world to Christianity. What I was getting at was pushing our religious values on others of different faiths. My oldest son had the privilege to travel abroad in his early teens meeting people of different cultures and faiths. When asked about being involved in missions work his reply was " I may be very religious, but I don't believe on pushing my religion onto others. If they are interested in my religion and come asking questions, then I am more then willing to talk with them."

For 20, he is wise beyond his years.

[packsaddle]

ASM915, perhaps there are new changes of which I am unaware but this topic has been discussed in previous threads. At that time the application only required names and contact info of persons willing to act as references, NOT for actual letters. However, as I remember from that discussion, there is some variation from council-to-council as to how that requirement is applied. I am looking at the Eagle scout rank application, effective April 1, 1999.

http://www.nesa.org/trail/58-728.pdf

Is there a new one?

 

As for the other part, I read your message differently from Trevorum but I understand his sensitivity on the subject. I agree with your basic approach of tolerance. However, what I observe in many religions is an attitude of arrogance (ours is right, yours is wrong, heaven is ours, you are damned). Those of us in the minority tend to be a bit sensitive as a result. So at the same time I share Trevorum's pessimistic view of a world dominated by what passes as Christianity today. I doubt I'd be much happier with dominance by many of the others either and yet, in the meantime, they fuss so over who will be dominant.