Da Rules is da Rules.

[Eamonn]

Over the past few months it seems that there has been a lot of discussions about rules, authority and who can do what?

These discussions have ranged from what is and what isn't a pull up!

To what a Chartering Organization can and can not do.

I feel that some of this is only confusing people who might be new to Scouting and the BSA.

Some forum members seem to be of the opinion that a COR or a Chartering Organization can change or make alteration to the rules and guidelines set by the BSA as they (the Chartering Organization) deem fit.

I think this is complete and utter balderdash.

When I read:

Ensuring that the Scouting program is conducted according to the policies and regulations of the organization and the Boy Scouts of America.

I don't see this as an "And -Or".

If a Chartering Organization does agree or doesn't like the rules of the BSA, it is of course free to not be a Chartering Organization. Or it can use whatever methods are in place to try and have these rules or guidelines changed.

There may well be times when the rules or guidelines might seem to unkind, of no service and maybe wrong.

But they are the rules.

In just about every document I have read the BSA adds the "Ensuring that the Scouting program is conducted according to the policies and regulations of the organization and the Boy Scouts of America" clause.

This really doesn't seem to allow any "Wiggle room".

I have over the years spoken with a lot of people who work for the BSA; these people are however just employees who are supposed to be following the wishes of the National Council.

I don't care where they are from, where they work, or what their job title is!

When it comes to the rules and regulations we have no choice but to follow what is found in the official BSA publications.

Eamonn

[jr56]

True, if everybody could do as they pleased, we wouldn't have a uniform program anymore. The "scouting program" would be whatever the CO decided to make it.

[Beavah]

Yah, nobody is advocatin' "everyone gets to do as he pleases."

 

But then I also hope nobody is really advocatin' tellin' Jesus he can't cure the sick on the sabbath because it's against da rules. "I don't care who he is, we have no choice but to follow the rules" and all that.

 

Stayin' seated in a canoe is a good idea. Until it's helpful to do somethin' else for safety. Not fraternizing between adults and kids is a good rule. One that should be upheld, even strictly. Until it's interpreted to mean two college aged adults can't go to a movie together even if their behavior in the crew is exemplary, their morals impeccable, and their parents and church approve.

 

I think it is perhaps reasonable to trust our Chartering Partner Catholics, Methodists, LDS, VFW, and our fellow scouters to handle obvious exceptions without the production of yet another formal document from Irving.

 

Aside from da TV lawyers in the group who enjoy that sort of thing, do we really want BSA regulations to become the size of the U.S. Tax Code? Or can we instead trust good people to do the right thing without a 23-part rule?

 

The latter is usually what we mean by "partnership." That's the BSA's structure. We don't dictate to our partners.

 

Gettin' too shrill and discourteous here for this old critter. Shame. I'm goin' off in search of a different venue. Well, maybe I'll go play in our fresh snow first.

 

Hope everyone has a safe, prosperous, and fun Scoutin' year.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

"Until it's interpreted to mean two college aged adults can't go to a movie together even if their behavior in the crew is exemplary, their morals impeccable, and their parents and church approve."

 

They can go to a movie anytime they want as boyfiend and girlfriend. What they can't do according to BSA's YP guidelines is date and be members of Venturing if one is registered as an adult and one is registered as a youth.

[Beavah]

Well, make that "almost obvious" exceptions.

 

[Eamonn]

I hope someone can point out if and where I might have come off being "shrill and discourteous".

As for :

"do we really want BSA regulations to become the size of the U.S. Tax Code? Or can we instead trust good people to do the right thing without a 23-part rule?

No of course we don't, we do however have a set of guidelines and rules, which are in place. Suggesting that COR's or Chartering Organizations can alter or change these at will is not true. As partners they have agreed to "Ensuring that the Scouting program is conducted according to the policies and regulations of the organization and the Boy Scouts of America."

Nearly all of the organizations that charter a sizable number of units are represented on the National Council, they have a voice and can work toward changing things that might seem to not work.

I see this as being very different than the local Elk's who are the chartering organization for the Ship I serve, wanting to change things.

If there is a need to change the rule, be it standing up in a canoe or rewriting the youth protection guidelines, it needs to be changed the right way, not just ignored or left in the hands of a local chartering organization. If this was what the BSA had wanted I feel they would have said so.

Some of us might not like it but when it comes to down to it the BSA does dictate to our partners. The program belongs to the BSA.

I might not always agree with the BSA, but I like to think that the BSA is trying to do what is best for all the youth in the programs and there are times when I or a chartering organization may not have all the facts.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

In the spirit of full disclosure, how many CO's are offered a full copy of the "policies, rules and regulations" of the BSA before they sign on the dotted line? Wouldn't this seem reasonable, if they are required to uphold them?

[John-in-KC]

Eamonn,

 

Scoutldr makes a point. There's a lot of training and education which BSA should offer it's Chartered Partners.

 

I've taken the COR training. Two words: Pro Forma. It's not even a shadow of what it needs to be.

 

In a caring Chartered Partner, the COR needs orientations to:

 

-Each of the Scouting programs, and their inter-relationships.

 

-Inter-relationship of the Aims and Methods across the programs.

 

-Leader and youth training systems, including how they equip the leader for service, and how the youth system equips the leader for life.

 

-Outdoor training support for leaders: How the outdoor training available to leaders inter-relates to the programs, and how it equips a leader to train youth or supervise youth training youth.

 

-Outdoor safety and lands management: We're supposed to be the premiere outdoor based citizenship program, let's teach it from the top of Chartered Partners to the newest wet behind the ears Tiger/parent partnership!

 

-Operations and management of the local council, and how the Chartered Partners should influence the direction local councils take.

 

-Youth protection management: How the local council and area child protective services integrate. How the YP program supports each of the Scouting programs. What are the policies dealing with youth who are in the eyes of the law and society adults and eligible to marry.

 

IMO, Commissioner Colleges should sponsor a special degree for the COR, taking him or her up through the Master's level, equipping them to serve their own organization as well as Scouting.

 

Unless and until National Council's explicitly provide this level of support to a Chartered Partner, there's an awful lot of wiggle room in the paragraphs of the Charter Agreement: "The chartered organization agrees to

 

"Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

"Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families."

 

My thoughts.

[Eamonn]

I'll agree that more could be done to make the Executive Officer of a Chartering Organization more aware of the rules and guidelines.

Having been in the position of dealing with these Executive Officers (Are they now Executive Officers or are they still Institution Heads?)I'm willing to go so far as to say that I did a terrible job of letting them know what they were letting themselves in for.

Some reasons for this were:

They never asked!!

I took it for granted that "Everyone knew"

I was overjoyed at having a new unit.

Still in my defense when they did ask I did everything I could to provide them with all the information they asked for.

Going as far as having them contact my pal who works in the BSA Relationship's Division.

Some people also contacted others within their own organization to get and find out more details.

This works when starting a new unit, but in many cases the unit is older than the Executive Officer.

With this in mind can we really expect someone who might not know or understand the rules and guidelines and might not have a good understanding of why they are in place to go about changing them?

One of the main duties of a District Executive is to meet and deal with Chartering Organization Heads, the Scout Service Center phone number is in the book. I'm sure if I were the head of a chartering organization, I'd call before I went out on a limb.

All the information is out there for the asking.

Eamonn.

[dragonn]

I'm not trying to change the BSA rules. I understand thay their for a reason, but I want to join Ventures. In the processes I don't want to get him in trouble which is why I asked. I find its best to be informed beforehand. We have been together for a long time and I feel that this is something we can do together. Only if I can manage not to have something so important to him taken away. I have no problem even after where married( by then I will be old enough to be an adviser) keeping things seperit on trips and such. I just really want to join him in what he loves now that females are allowed.

 

~Jenn

[Eamonn]

One problem I have with the forum is that someone asks a question.

Hey -That's Good.

Someone provides the "Official BSA" view, guideline, rule, regulation call it what you will. - That's also good.

But then it seems we end up looking at and posting opinions about the rule.

I wish people would spin off and start a new thread, something along the lines of "Why I disagree with the rule."

I hope we never become an organization of book Thumpers!!

We all want to do what is in the best interest of the youth we serve and protect the BSA.

I do think that most rules can be looked at, scrutinized and if this is taken to the extreme found to not work or full of holes.

Some could ask : "What side of the road do people drive on in the UK?"

The answer is: On the left hand side.

Over the years I have read a good many explanations as to why this is so. But the real truth is that no one really knows.

Yes people drive on the left hand side, but they might drive on the right hand side when going down/up a one way street or road. They might drive on the right hand side of the road if there happens to be a long line of African Elephants blocking the road.

I feel sorry for Jenn.

But rule or no rule I would from a Scouting point of view I would urge her not to join the same Crew as her boy-friend.

My reasons for this are:

I've seen first hand what happens when two people who have feelings for each other disagree, especially when they are away from home. It's really hard to separate what the issue at hand is from the feelings and the past history.

Before I married Her Who Must Be Obeyed, I was dating a very nice girl. She became an Assistant Cubmaster in the Pack. I was Scoutmaster. The Troop went to Kandersteg, Trish (my girlfriend) came along. My main focus was the Scouts, she felt "left-out" we had a gigantic fight. Of course she was stuck there with me and I was stuck there with her. The tension was running high, the Scouts of course sensed it. I wasn't my happy little self!! We arrived home still not liking each other. She quit working with the pack. Which hurt the pack. It just wasn't very nice.

About a year back we had two Sea Scouts who were dating. We (the quarterdeck) did lay down rules about what was and what wasn't acceptable. This worked until they stopped dating, both remained in the Ship, but both took every opportunity to take jabs at each other. In the end they both quit.

So rule or no rule I would strongly urge Jenn to give her boy friend his own space to do what he does.

When he is with the Crew, the Crew has to be his main focus and this can play havoc with a relationship. That's my opinion and then there is the rule.

Eamonn.

 

[Hunt]

My observation is that for many, if not most, BSA units, the idea that the CO runs the program is, at best, a polite myth. In fact, I would venture that if BSA required more training, orientation, or actual obligations by COs, that we would see a substantial exodus of COs. It would ultimately lead to the greater rise of "Friends of Troop XXX" as the CO, which would really just be the Troop Committee in another guise. Maybe that would be better, I don't know.

[SR540Beaver]

Hunt,

 

I fear that you are correct concerning the involvement of the CO. Evidently, the involvement is greater in some parts of the country than others. But from what I can tell from talking to scouters across the land, their CO is usually AWOL. I think the units work the hardest at keeping a relationship alive.

 

I know that was true when we were Cubs. I was CC for the Pack and I had to go to the COR's house each time we needed an adult application signed. This lady had been a leader in the Pack at one time, but her sons decided they were not interested. Once that happened, we never saw her at committee meetings or anything else. The pastor was an Eagle Scout and proud to have a Pack at his church, but the only time we could involve him was when we made an appointment to get his signature on the recharter paperwork once a year. If we were lucky, we could get him to say the prayer at Blue and Gold. He did always make it a point to tell us how much he appreciated us. We got to use some class rooms in the annex behind the church for our den meetings. Pack meetings were held in the auditoriums of several elementary schools that we rotated between. The church was never too keen on allowing us to use the main facilities other than grudgingly let us use it for Blue and Gold. We always reached out to them, but they seldom wanted much to do with us.

 

Fast forward to now and our Troop at a different CO. Our troop has been there for 40 years. We have over 60 boys on our roster and we are one of the largest Troops in our district. We have a large basement room that is "ours" although it is used by the church for Sunday School. We have access to a number of other rooms in the basement that we use for patrol meetings and parents. We do a number of service projects for our CO each year. We do have a relationship with them, but I'd characterize it as weak. Again, the relationship is due to us reaching out to them rather than the other way around. The only time we hear from them is when they think the boys have gotten loose in the church. That doesn't happen as there are two staircases going up from the basement and there are adults in the hallway at all times. There are folks who would like to take our room. We have two very nice trailers chained to a light pole in very plain view of a major street. There are folks in the church who want us to park them in the deepest darkest part of the back parking lot behind the building and out of sight.

 

Even with what I've described in both instances, I'd say we have one of the best relationships with any of the CO's around.

 

I've also been down the route of the "Friends of Troop XXX". The main problem with that is providing a consistent, adequate and safe meeting space. A unit can be chartered to a group of people, but where are they going to meet?

[RangerT]

SR540

 

I agree to what you stated and if you have ever read the contract signed between the CO and the council each year you would see it leaves out more than it puts in and probably needs some revisions as to all the responsibilities of a CO.

 

As to the friends of troop xxx as the CO, my experience with one such unit was unreal, they met at different houses each week, no real committee, just a group of parents who were signed in by the SM. Adult supervision was minimal one or two adults except at party time which was their committee meeting which was a bbq and beer party while the boys met down in the basement unsupervised. I pulled my boy out and reported this to the council over a year ago, guess what the troop still exsists and being run the same way, the SE claimed he didnt want to lose this unit and he told them to shape up. Well it didnt have much effect and that SE is now at National, go figure. So if da rules is da rules who is enforcing them???? Not the CO or the council.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I work in an Agency where we have a Standard of Operating Procedures (SOP) manual. A new person comes in and two things happen. They are told to read the SOP and follow it carefully. They are then told how it has been interpreted over the years from the Old Timers. Now it just so happens if an Old Timer has been around for thirty years, they have certain interpretations that have been instilled from their inception into the Agency. If you go down the hallway and ask someone that has been there twenty or even ten years there are certain ideas or perceptions about the same item. A person is generally left with piecing an answer together the best they can and generally with good results. Most of the time it is a perception that an individual has about a rule that makes it correct but only from one viewpoint. If you add another point of view and then another one, pretty soon an elephant emerges from the thicket of partial answers. I think I see this happening in the BSA sometimes.

 

Scouting is a Strange Bird to say the very least. It is kind of like allowing people to have babies without so much as having a license to do so first. COs are signed up without much of an idea as to what they are doing other than they are doing something good. COs go forth into the night and most are heard from only once a year when it is time for them to sign their name. The Scouting program is born into a world where its parents are nowhere in sight and yet it is taught to walk and talk by those others that have adopted it. So what reason for the separation?

 

I have some answers. The CO is told that they have limited responsibility and that the leaders will be trained to run the program, so not to worry. I believe that this pact is like allowing a 16 year old to have unlimited use of the family sedan because he has passed his Drivers license test. I know, I know what you are thinking, Yea, Yea but it works. I agree it does work and usually because there are so many good people that are 1. intelligent,

2. responsible, and 3. have a deep and abiding love for the program. Most want it to work and believe in the Ideals and the Methods. Most spend time on the phone to the DE and to others that have good ideas. Many go to Roundtables and get trained and use that training. That does not mean that everyone hears and remembers all of the training either. There really isnt anyone standing over ones shoulder but in due time most conform to the rules.

 

Back to the Agency analogy, people generally learn the rules not just by reading or by training but through experience as well. Most rules are based on good ideas learned over a period of time by people that have spent years learning the ropes. Scouting is like that. If you read the SMHB, you will find that it has rules from application that have been tried so it is like having ones own guide.

 

Several years ago at Philmont Scout Ranch, a young man fell to his death from a high point above a beautiful lake. At that same moment, several people were standing and gazing out at the majestic site of the lake and the mountain above it. An agonizing groan was heard as it arose across the expanse from deep inside the SM still up on the trail with the other Scouts looking on. In Scouting, we have rules and they are for good reasons. If a person gets too close to the edge of a mountain, there is a possibility that the individual will fall off and if he falls, it is probable he will die. Youth, conceit and foolhardiness will not keep the inevitable from happening. Rules in Scouting are based on good experience and should be observed. They are not meant to keep people from having fun. There is plenty of fun to be had in Scouting. The same trail at Philmont that the young man fell from was never closed. Anyone may still go up. Just dont get too close to the edge. fb