Boy Scouts get blame for Wild Fire

[GernBlansten]

You make some good points Fuzzy, but I'm still not convinced that the council is without liability here.

 

Change hats for a moment to being one of the parents of these scouts or counselors. I would be enraged that I entrusted my minor son to a council camp who allowed him to violate rules (lack of proper supervision) resulting in a $14,000,000 wildfire. I'd be scared to death that the trail of liability would lead to my family. I'd be spinning up my own lawyers to seek damages against the council for negligence to cover my own potential loses.

[Beavah]

Since this was a Summer camp, then the Summer Camp Staff may have felt they could rewrite the rules to mean what they wanted them to mean.

 

Yah, it's a mistake to believe that rules keep people safe. Just doesn't work that way. Knowledge, experience, judgment keep people safe. If yeh rely on rules and then on blame, you hurt people. Better to use different techniques.

 

We also have to remember that da G2SS is just a mishmash of compiled stuff from other BSA documents. Camps don't run on G2SS, they run on the National Camp School standards coupled with local policies. Betcha find that many camps do the Wilderness Survival overnight without two adults.

 

The Council has been noted in this forum before as being an independent entity of the national BSA. National has the most money and most Councils would love for National to back their negligence.

 

Councils are an independent entity from the national BSA. They are separately incorporated, and receive a charter in a manner similar to a CO, eh? Yah, the relationship is "tighter" in some ways, but you must remember this setup is National's choice. It insulates them in many ways from liability and other issues created by the councils.

 

Councils, like CO's wouldn't "love" National to provide umbrella liability coverage in the event they're found negligent. They would expect it. It is one of the terms of the charter. And of course, councils end up payin' some insurance cost, eh?

 

I feel that when a person or persons decide to change the rules to meet their own desires then they must assume the responsibility for the consequences. I still think that the minors are all guilty of this offense and that National should not be involved. The Council may take some of the responsibility but most of it rests on the individuals that started the fire.

 

Yah, I think yeh can debate that as an ethical/moral question. When a kid in a troop screws up, do the adults bear any responsibility? Still, I think most of us would say the adults do.

 

In terms of the law, though, there's little question, eh? Even with allowances for variation in state law. Respondeat superior. The employer is liable for the actions of its employee.

 

And we might say that they're "all guilty" in that any of them could have stopped it, but we use a different standard when we are talkin' about legal guilt or innocence, eh?

[packsaddle]

The best way out of this is for BSA, internally, to decide where the money is going to come from and then pay the 12 million. No argument. That will curry some favor, perhaps, with the land managers (taking responsibility, addressing the problem, paying the damages).

THEN the situation becomes an opportunity, merely a question of what pristine area to move the camp to next...I mean, who wants to camp in 14,000 acres of charred stumps?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Just a few short years ago a couple of minors laid down on a hillside near an elementary school after pulling the fire alarm. They took their Grandfathers guns and shot kids and teachers down as they filed outside for safe haven from an imaginary fire. The reason for the acts of the shooters was never very clear but something else did come to light. Lawmakers finally took a good hard look at who should be responsible and what they had created with limits on minors. A few laws were changed. The lives of the families that had been impacted were forever changed. The shooters are now out and their records sealed and their lives are changed as well. 14 million dollars is not equal to one life so it is not a good analogy but the idea about responsibility is the same.

 

If I put myself in the shoes of the parents of the kids that burned the area, I would hope that I would not lose my kids to jail nor would I want to pay a fine for them. Moreover, I would not want my kids to learn about being irresponsible either and I wouldnt want others to pay for that which I am the author. That just isnt much of a legacy to pass on to a world that needs people more than ever to be responsible for their acts. Taking responsibility has allot to do with what Boy Scouting should be.

 

Pack makes a good point but I hope that Scouts take that burned area and replants the trees and makes it into one of the premier camping/natural areas of the world. I hope that Scouts from all over will come for their service projects to restore and replenish. I hope that Scouts that go there in the future will learn how to live with nature, learn about fire safety and what effects careless behavior can have on the land and the lives associated with the land. I hope that the future of that camp becomes a sign of what Scouting can be rather than what some now think Scouting has become. fb

 

[acco40]

In my council:

 

1) Counselors in training are 15 yr old (non-paid) and work for two weeks.

 

2) Camp Counselors - paid staff, need to be at least 16. Area dirctors (shooting sports, waterfront, Scoutcraft, etc.) need to be at least 18.

 

3) When working on the Wilderness survival MB - our summer camp staff mandates that at least two adults (from the troops of the Scout participants) accompany the youth and counselors on the overnighter (not one of my favorite tasks).

 

The federal government argued that Boy Scouts playing with fire caused a 14,200-acre wildfire and wants a judge to hold them responsible, allowing officials to seek damages. The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) or the Boy Scouts who were playing with the fire (Johnny, Mike, Jimmy, etc.)? Big difference. I think there is enough blame to go around.

 

On a similar note, today, where I live, a 21 year old is being released from juvenile detention after serving ten years for shooting someone in the head, killing him, when he was 11 years old. He is the youngest ever to be tried as an adult in Michigan. Should kids be held accountable for their actions?

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Acco, Shooting Sports and Aquatic Directors have to be 21 or older by BSA Camp School standards, just for future reference.

 

As far as maturity goes, did the kids at Jonesboro realize they were killing kids? I dont know, they only shot girls and the lady teacher so they knew what their target was but does that prove anything? They are due out soon, was this enough of a punishment? Too much? Not enough?

 

 

Does putting a financial lien against the scouts or the parents do anything but destroy lives, then again, maybe a few more destroyed lives is called for. What was the nature of the "fooling" around with fire, did one counselor try to stop the horseplay only to be met with a call of "hey leave us alone and we will give you a skittle", do we know what was said? What is the background of the participants, any records? Brushes with authority? Probably things we wont know because they are juveniles. Did the BSA play with fire? No, but a group of people who belong to the BSA did and just what do we do? Have the 17 join the National Forest service and spend the rest of their lives recovering burnt forests? But if we say they are just kids, what license are we granting?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[packsaddle]

The damage is real and there are real costs associated with both the direct damage and the efforts to control or limit the damage. The precise dollar amount can be argued but it will be a big number regardless.

 

At the same time, there is reasonable certainty as to who did the deed and under whose responsibility. I suspect that the boys and the parents are not going to be on the hook for this one. Probably not the CO, if what I've read is correct.

 

Here's the thing. A large part of those costs have already been paid by taxpayers who absolutely were NOT responsible for the damage. And (Merlyn, where are you?) in this taxpayer's mind the responsible parties had better be taken to task for this to repay the taxpayers.

 

The boys have probably already learned far more about fire safety than they ever imagined...probably everyone else involved as well. Punishment is unlikely to improve on that lesson, nor regrow the forest any faster.

 

In my mind what's left is for the ones with the deep pockets to start shucking out the coins. It would be really nice if they'd also do the right thing, admit responsibility and apologize but it's not a requirement.

[John-in-KC]

Acco,

 

As a point of reference, in my Council,

 

Day Camp J-staff or CIT (1 session): Age 14

 

Instructor (paid), beginning at 15

 

Counselor (paid, Scouter position), beginning at 18

Assistant Director (paid, Scouter position), beginning at 20

Area Director (paid, Scouter position), beginning at 21

 

Program Director is also over 21

Camp Director is also over 21

 

Area Directors, PDs, and Camp Directors must be National Camp School trained. I think many Assistant Directors are also NCS trained.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The Jonesboro boys are back out and one was recently stopped with a handgun, so I suppose he has learned his lesson about rifles. It looks like learning a lesson has more to do with being able to cry at ones trial rather than any change of ones behavior. Taking responsibility is a lesson learned at any age and with any organization, right up to the presidency. Shelling out coins or spending time in jail or spending time replanting are all good exercises in returning what was taken from the rightful owners. It doesnt fix it but it goes a long way in making up the difference. Hiding out or behind others who pay for one's acts has little to do with the tenth point of the Scout Law. fb

[Beavah]

Yah, but Fuzz, these lads didn't set out to deliberately commit arson and burn down a forest, eh? They were bein' kids and bein' stupid. That's a bit different than committin' murder, dontcha think?

 

Insurance is one way society spreads risk. It's a recognition that we're all stupid sometime or another. Drivin' too fast. Lettin' ourselves get overweight and more prone to disease. Waitin' too long to fix that light socket. Bein' a kid and playin' with matches. We pay into it recognizing that our money is going in part to bail out our neighbors and fellow citizens who have been dumb. And we hope that we're never that dumb, but boy, when we screw up we sure are relieved that our neighbors paid in to bail us out. Bypass surgery is expensive, eh?

 

Da kids have learned a lesson for a lifetime, I expect. Same as the guy who has a heart attack learns a lesson for a lifetime. But it won't really stop other kids from playin' with fire, any more than it stops other adults from bein' overweight.

 

I agree, though, when da insurer attorneys come swoopin' in and circlin' the wagons, they do get in the way of boys and adults owning up to the truth, eh? Almost teaches the wrong lesson - like teachin' coverup, rather than owning up. Better for the boys to stand up and apologize, and the BSA to do the same. The boys should spend a good part of a summer plantin' trees and teaching other scouts about fire safety. Da BSA should stand up and say "yes, of course, we'll pay fair restitution."

 

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bev,

I have an am paying my health and home insurance for the time I will need it and I will need it just the same as any other person alive will need it. It is 100% sure that no matter how healthy a person is, sickness and death will come a-knocking.

*This fact escapes many. People would slow down their lives if they truly understood it.

 

Over the holidays, a young man we know went in for dental surgery and died. Another young lady went in for a stomach surgery and received an infection that ate away her intestines and she died as well. We can credit great medical advances for both deaths. The problem is that both of these young people were highly intelligent, motivated and lead lives worthy of the best care. I am not sure what bill they needed to pay but it is paid nonetheless and I am left trying to figure it all out.

 

I agree the lads did not set out to burn down the forest. I am also supposing that the Jonesboro boys figured that everyone they shot would later get up and walk.

(*Without ever asking them, I bet that they had no idea that people would actually die.)

 

I spoke to a young man today that told me that he was in the tenth grade and that he was only concerned with what he was doing this year. He was making C/Ds and that his parents could afford to send him to any college when the time came. He was very proud of that fact. One should never argue with youthful conceit because it would only diminish the world of the much needed swagger. fb

 

[Aquila calva]

More news this week on this topic.

 

_______________________________________________

 

Deseret Morning News, Wednesday, March 07, 2007

 

Boy Scouts settle Utah suit over 2002 fire

 

By Ben Winslow

Deseret Morning News

 

The ashes are now cooling over a controversial lawsuit filed by the state of Utah over a 14,000-acre wildfire started by a Boy Scout troop camping in the Uinta mountains.

 

 

The settlement requires the Boy Scouts of America to shell out more than $330,000 in cash and plant more than 9,000 tree seedlings on state land scorched by a Scout troop left unsupervised in 2002.

 

 

"They will institute education programs for Scouts and Scout leaders designed to prevent future fires," assistant Utah Attorney General Michael Johnson said Tuesday.

 

 

The lawsuit was filed against the Boy Scouts of America and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 2004. At the time, the state sought more than $600,000 in damages for putting out the fire that spread over state, federal and private lands near the East Fork of the Bear River Scout Camp in rural Summit County.

 

 

It mirrors a federal lawsuit filed at the same time, seeking to recover $13 million in damages.

 

 

"Our suit is related to the money that the state spent to put out the fire," Johnson said.

 

 

The lawsuits claim a group of about 20 Scouts from an LDS Church ward in Peoa were camping overnight for a merit badge for wilderness survival. The Scouts were left in the care of a pair of 15-year-old Boy Scout counselors who left the boys to sleep in a tent because "it looked like it might rain," the federal lawsuit alleges.

 

 

Despite a fire ban in place, authorities said the Scouts started numerous fires that were even outside designated fire areas. The counselors knew about the fires, the lawsuits claim.

 

 

"No reasonable quantity of water was present to suppress the Shelter 11 Fire, either where it was built, or if it escaped," the federal lawsuit said. "No reasonable type nor quantity of tools or fire-fighting equipment were available to suppress the Shelter 11 fire nor keep it from escaping."

 

 

After the Scouts broke camp on June 28, the fire flared up and spread burning 14,208 acres of federal, state and private land in Summit County. Federal agencies estimate it cost them more than $13 million to put out the blaze.

 

 

In a twist, the Boy Scouts of America filed its own lawsuit, claiming "unknown Scouts, on their own free time" started a new fire that spread. The lawsuit filed against three unnamed people acknowledged that the Scouts were unsupervised. That complaint is wrapped up in the federal lawsuit against the Boy Scouts of America.

 

 

A federal trial was scheduled to start this week in the U.S. government's lawsuit. Instead, it was abruptly canceled with no new date set. There is speculation that the federal government is also in settlement talks. However, the U.S. Attorney's Office declined to say if it was in settlement talks.

 

 

With the state settlement, the LDS Church has now been dropped from both lawsuits. Both Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff and then-U.S. Attorney Paul Warner took criticism for the lawsuits, despite their support for Scouting.

 

 

"We had to recover taxpayer funds," Johnson said.

 

 

The Great Salt Lake Council of the Boy Scouts said it plans to turn the seedling settlement into a lesson for Scouts and their leaders about the damage associated with wildfires.

 

 

"The council is also initiating a training program at our long-term residence facilities and day camps which will better educate Scouts and their leaders about fire safety, wildfire prevention and information on restrictions and closures," Kay Godfrey, a spokesman for the council, said in a statement Tuesday. "We are pleased to have settled this issue and are looking forward to partnering with the state on these important matters."

 

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

E-mail: bwinslow@desnews.com

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

2007 Deseret News Publishing Company

 

[GernBlansten]

In a twist, the Boy Scouts of America filed its own lawsuit, claiming "unknown Scouts, on their own free time" started a new fire that spread. The lawsuit filed against three unnamed people acknowledged that the Scouts were unsupervised. That complaint is wrapped up in the federal lawsuit against the Boy Scouts of America.

 

That paragraph just shivers me timbers! Is the BSA retaliating against minor scouts, the councilors or some leaders? I'd sure like to know the details of the BSA suit.

[evmori]

I gotta question why the LDS church was dropped from the federal suit? From the article it sounds like this was a LDS chartered unit. Is the LDS church distancing themselves from this? If so, how is that possible since by chartering a unit, they technically own the unit.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

Ed, me too. Gern, I caught that as well. Several things converge in my mind.

For one, after Katrina, the number of people who thought their insurance covered the hurricane damage but whose insurance companies tried not to cover them after all.

Then, my own experience with automobile insurance and minimum coverage policies (not mine).

And now, BSA. I doubt they are trying to retaliate against scouts, as opposed to shirking responsibility - if that is indeed the case. I would want to know more detail before passing judgment.

I am sure the Katrina victims were told by their insurance companies that they were covered...prior to the storm. The auto insurance companies sure play the game well. The BSA twist is very interesting indeed. I hope it is not another story of deception. But I have always been suspicious of insurance coverage that only costs a few pennies. If it looks too good to be true....

And that is the reason I carry a huge personal liability umbrella rider - to subsidize the coverage for anyone I ever come in contact with. It's only money!