General Reinwald interview about a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

[OldGreyEagle]

How about a research project question, in the United States today, what is the average life expectancy of a male? of a female?

[packsaddle]

Research? Did I hear the word 'research'? As long as we're engaged in an academic quest, consider the perspective of this snippet regarding the industrial revolution in England at which time the life expectancy of workers was less than 20 years:

 

"People (including small children) worked 14 to 16 hours a day, in horrible, dangerous conditions for wages that were not enough to buy food. Life expectancy for all of England was 40, for the laborers it was no more than 18. Fifty-seven percent died before the age of five."

This is from a book, 'Rebels Against the Future', by Kirkpatrick Sale.

[LongHaul]

OGE,

Take a look at this table based on death certificates world wide.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#027

 

 

packsaddle,

No argument that breast cancer strikes earlier. Onset of BC is 25 and rises with age where as onset of PC is 50 and also rises with age but at a far greater rate. According to the National Cancer Institute, they expect 215,000 new cases of BC with a 40,000 death rate and 209,000 new cases of PC with a 42,000 death rate. Problem is on another page at their web site they state It was projected that in 2006, there would be 564,830 cancer deaths overall, including 162,460 deaths from lung cancer; 55,170 from cancers of the colon/rectum; 40,970 from female breast cancer; and 27,350 from prostate cancer. Statistics are wonderful because they are so elastic. I make NO case for increased PC funding at the expense of BC funding. I dont think PC is being ignored because of BC getting the primary focus. I think PC is ignored because it kills older men. At age 75 150 per 100,000 females will die of breast cancer where as at 75 250 per 100,000 males will die of prostate cancer. At 85 the numbers for women are 275 per 100,000 and for men they jump to 800 per 100,000. So yes BC kills earlier but I think the concept that it kills more often is no longer valid. If you go to

http://progressreport.cancer.gov/doc_detail.asp?pid=1&did=2005&chid=26&coid=229&mid=#estimate

and scroll down you will find a graph which shows the death rates of the four cancers from 1975 to 2004 and has PC slightly above BC on the death toll. Where as PC is at about the 27,000 figure they give at the top of the page BC is no where near the 40,000 range.

LongHaul

(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[OldGreyEagle]

Aha Mr Longhaul, women have a longer life expectancy every step of the way yet all we hear about is the medically underserved woman and that the hospital is opening another womens health service/clinic meanwhile men are dropping like flies...

 

 

[packsaddle]

OGE, you sound like my wife! I resent your comparison of men to flies.

LongHaul, Your assertion of less interest in old men than in young women is certainly true for me but that may not have anything whatsoever to do with cancer.

Anyway I noticed on the web site you gave that, "It was projected that in 2006, there would be 564,830 cancer deaths overall, including 162,460 deaths from lung cancer; 55,170 from cancers of the colon/rectum; 40,970 from female breast cancer; and 27,350 from prostate cancer." If the 2006 projection from your website was correct, then there were far more deaths from BC than for PC. Another website worth examination is this one: http://cancercontrolplanet.cancer.gov/atlas/index1.jsp?ac=1

It gives the cumulative mortality for various diseases over a longer period, ending unfortunately in 1994. But the raw numbers reflect the projection for 2006 in your website. From 1970-1994, there were over 927,000 deaths from BC and nearly 623,000 deaths from PC. From 1990-1994, there were a little more than 281,000 deaths from BC and a little more than 168,000 from PC. I don't argue the rates per 100,000 that you list but the total numbers support the conclusion that more deaths occur from BC than for PC.

[Hunt]

Another way to think of breast cancer v. prostate cancer would be to consider the number of years of life expectancy they cut off--because PC kills mostly older men, the impact in terms of life expectancy is much greater for BC. Also, prostate cancer is one of a number of diseases of old age; if one of them doesn't get you, another one will.

 

Or to put this somewhat cynically: no treatment saves anybody's life; it just prolongs it. Eliminating prostate cancer would have only a modest effect on life prolongation.

[LongHaul]

Packsaddle & Hunt,

The site you provided is also from the NCI. The site I provided from the NCI has conflicting data depending on the page. The projection for 2006 is at the top of the page but scroll down and you will find a graph U.S. death rates for common cancers 1975-2003 which shows the death rate of PC to be above BC. I only want to point out the conflicting data from a body (the NCI) which should be able to provide accurate numbers. The NCI also indicates that the death rate from BC has dropped steadily since 1990. The Annual Percentage of Change (APC) from 1990- 95 was 1.75 and from 1998-2003 the APC was 1.61 why would it all of a sudden jump for the 2006 projection to be so far ahead of the PC projection when the two were about the same in 2003? I question the view that more women contract BC then men PC. 1 in 8 women will contract BC in her life time but 1 in 6 men will contract PC. As a rule of thumb it is not wise to compare data from two different studies because parameters are never the same. Saying that the American Cancer Society also uses the projection that 40,410 people will die of BC in 2006 but the break down is that 1,110 will be under 40 and 20,940 will be over 65.

 

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/stt/stt_0.asp

 

Is the notion that BC kills the young really valid? Of the 40,410 projected deaths 39,300 will be over 40. When we look at death prevention we are faced with a different picture. According to the ACI 214,640 people will contract BC in 2006 and 234,460 will contract PC. However 41,431 will die of BC but only 27,350 will die from PC. BC is more fatal than PC but Ovarian Cancer kills 75.86% of the women who contract it! Its what killed my mother and why I took an interest in the numbers game we play with cancer research and fund raising.

LongHaul

 

[local1400]

Wow, how did we stray so far off the topic of this thread?

[OldGreyEagle]

Forrest Gumps feather?

[Hunt]

A lot of elderly men contract prostate cancer, but die of something else--in fact, if you live long enough, there is a very good chance that you will get prostate cancer, but it probably won't be what kills you.

[packsaddle]

Local1400, I'll try to give you a less obscure answer. The bad joke that started this thread offended one or more members. Then, predictably, there was discussion about political correctness and prejudice. And to illustrate their point some noted that WASP males were taking a backseat to certain other groups. OGE, in particular, mentioned the prominence of women's interests over men's with regard to breast cancer and prostate cancer. Whether this is actually true or not was not addressed, but I responded with my opinion that the alleged discrepancy was reasonable in my view. LongHaul then weighed in with his view and OGE (who moonlights in another life as a Championship Wrestler under the nickname, "The Instigator" ) just darts in once in a while with some more fuel.

At least this is my fractured version of it. Not as poetic as Gump's Feather but perhaps a little easier to understand.

[OldGreyEagle]

Would that mean I am OldGreyEagle P.I. (Poetic Instigator)?

 

Actually, the reason why males die sooner than females and the reason why there is an emphasis on womens health and why hospitals open women health centers is basic economics. Women will use health care men will not. You go to a hospital, most of the patients are women because women will go to a physician, men like to "tough it out". Toughing out a heart attack (myocardial infarct) doesnt work well very often. Men will ignore symtoms far longer than women. If men sought out health care as women do, then the averages would change.

 

I made my orignal statement to bring this out, please guys, if you are having a medical issue, dont ignore it, see a doctor, we have to stick around to pester each other.

[LongHaul]

Hunt,

 A lot of elderly men contract prostate cancer, but die of something else--in fact, if you live long enough, there is a very good chance that you will get prostate cancer, but it probably won't be what kills you.

         First you argued that BC kills at a younger age and that "the impact in terms of life expectancy is much greater for BC". The numbers from both the NCI and the ACI say that 97% of the women who die of BC are over 40 and 51.8% are over 65. Now you are saying that even though 1 in 6 men will contract PC its not as important an issue because it wont actually kill them? Where are your numbers relating the effect of having PC on the general health and well being as it relates to the ability to fight non PC illness? Where are the studies to look at the effect of having PC as it relates to heart disease mortality? Where are the studies which look at the instance being susceptible to other cancers after being diagnosed with PC? We don't have them becasue we are not funding those types of studies for PC but you can find those types of studies for cancers affecting women.  Once again I will state that I do not advocate cutting, stopping or impeding in anyway the fight against BC. I just cant accept the validation of the difference in importance placed on BC over other cancers and diseases. As packsaddle so eloquently pointed out this male dominated societys attention rests more on the female than their fellow male. We are bias in our sympathies SO WHAT admit it and move on but stop trying to justify it with arguments the evidence does not support.

 LongHaul

[local1400]

Maybe we should have a nonreunion and brawl-for-it-all. Is O.G.E in the Champs or the Challengers corner? Im coming in at 5ft 11 and 240 (ok 275 BUT I am big-boned!)Hey Pack, I never earned Insect study MB--how do you tell the difference between male and female WASPS anyway?(This message has been edited by local1400)

[packsaddle]

OK, putting things together now...

LongHaul, I understand your point and I can't fault your reasoning. And I do agree regarding the SO WHAT factor. Given my life philosophy of "spawn till you die" and the fact that, biologically speaking, paternity is always in doubt, it is easy for me to think of PC in terms of SO WHAT. If I were to get PC I'd probably do nothing whatsoever except perhaps hope that some other little bug does the trick first (let's hear it for the bugs!)...but not before a lot more spawning.