General Reinwald interview about a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

[packsaddle]

Beav, that's interesting. Almost all of my elderly relatives send me similar stuff, mostly myth, and they really believe it. No wonder predators are always targeting them. Back in the 1980s they were saying, "....government regulation never pumped a barrel of oil...."

I hope someone sticks an ice pick in my ear before I ever get to that point in life. Have a nice day.

[oldsm]

[RANT]

I think our society has become entirely to focussed on feelings. In our perhaps well-intentioned (perhaps misguided) efforts avoid offending anyone at any time, we have become a nation devoid of humanity. We are so fearful of even the possibility of offending someone that we minimize ourselves.

 

Humor has always worked by having someone/something as an object. Sometimes it's men, sometimes women, sometimes the "disadvantaged", sometimes blondes, sometimes [fill-in-the-blank].

 

I firmly believe that if you happen to be part of the object group, and you find a joke offensive, GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON. I'll bet that everyone at some point in their life has told a joke at someone else's expense. It is part of life - always has been and always will be. Accept that diversity in our society means that there will always be people (good people) who enjoy poking a little fun at someone else. And I think we all know that a pendulum swings both ways. If you don't identify with a group's/person's behavior, remove yourself from the situation.

 

For myself, I try not to offend. But I'm also not opposed to ribald humor in the appropriate setting. Political correctness has run roughshod over our society, and I for one am tired of it.

[END RANT]

[LongHaul]

This reminds me of an incident which took place at a BSA Training course I attended. In setting up for a presentation the American Flag and other BSA flags were put out, the American Flag was placed to its own left instead of to its own right. After the first presentation was complete the presenters, 2 males and 2 females were leaving the stage. They separated into two groups, the 2 males and the 2 females. A trainee who had noticed the error was approaching the stage to inform the presenters of the error. The 2 males were going away from the trainee and the 2 females were approaching him. He approached the two females and said, Pardon me Ladies, but did either of you place the flags on stage during set up? One of the females replied, Why do you ask? To which the trainee said Because they are improperly positioned and I wanted to be sure you knew before you continue. At which point the female angrily informed the trainee that it was improper to refer to women as Ladies because the term was demeaning and meant to cast females as lesser individuals than males. The husband of one of the females approached the trainee minutes latter explaining that that he, the husband, expected an apology be made to his wife. The female in charge of the training as a whole came up and expressed dismay that the trainee would display such unscout like behavior. The training continued with the flags improperly positioned.

Recently there was an incident in which a comic used the N word in responding to some hecklers. I have Blacks in my troop and have heard the term used between Black scouts. Along with making it clear that such references will not be tolerated in the Troop I made it a point to talk to the boys about how they saw the word, what it meant to them as people and in combination with their personal ethnic/racial position. I have other races and ethnicities as well as Black and White. Many people do not see the N word as being bad, unacceptable, or just plain wrong all by itself. It depends on WHO says it more than the context or manner in which it was said. Had this comic been Black there would have been no media attention. I view this as racism and not on the part of the comic. The man should not have used the term in the first place but the resulting outrage is purely an example of racism (IMO) none the less.

LongHaul

 

[FScouter]

There will always be that part of society that will revel in repeating demeaning jokes. As well as those that object to being targeted. I suppose anyone has a right to be insensitive, but whats the point in defending against the objections that result? Are the demeaning joke tellers getting their feelings hurt when someone objects? Get over it and move on!

[packsaddle]

People may have the right to use it any way they please but IMO, the 'N' word is always bad no matter who says it and no matter what are the circumstances or context.

[LongHaul]

Why is it only the other person's feelings that matter? Just because I object to my scouts using the "N" word when speaking to one another why should the PLC be bound by my feelings. If the PLC sees nothing wrong with using the "N" word, which is prevalent in the music a number of them listen to, why should my feeling take president over theirs? I can get away with Use what ever language you want outside Scouting but when your in that uniform and in the presence of your fellow scouts you will conduct your mouth according to my rules because I earned the respect of my boys and their parents. The question in this thread is whether it is right to impose my feelings on them? The initial joke was sexist, are sexist jokes wrong in and of themselves or dependent on the audience, and the teller. If the General in the original joke had been presented as a female would it still have been wrong? We have heard it said just get over it and move on in reference to both sides, those offended and those defending the right to tell off color jokes. Which shall it be?

LongHaul

 

[SSScout]

Let me see now. What have I learned in this discussion.

 

A racial epithet is considered offending if used by someone who is NOT a member of the racial group that the epithet defames. But if it is used by a member of the group towards another member of the group, it is okay (snicker snicker). Maybe.

 

A joke is better if it is NOT an historical anecdote (ie, a transcriptionn of a real incident). A joke is better if it is totally fictional. Well, maybe if folks are honest about the origin of the story, then many iterations down the road (remember the game "telegraph"?) it can still be a joke, and not an insult.

 

If the joke/insult/offending epithet/satire is about MY group or me, I should shrug my shoulders and move on. Hope I always have strong shoulders.

 

The context of the telling is of no import. Oh, yeah? Yer mother wears army boots! (mmm, some do. wait a minute...)

 

* * * Let's ask an American Aborigini (native American? Pick a nation) about the following terms: squaw. Redskin. Injun.

 

#1... The original posted "incident" never happened, historically. It is/was a made up joke, and as many jokes utilize, this one utilized the foibles of several well recognized groups to launch it's humor.

#2... Once upon a time, I was a real gung ho Scout. And a fan of Mad Magazine. OOOO, the angst I felt when once I spied the latest issue on the drugstore rack, and it had a copy of the Boy Scout Handbook on it's cover with Alfred E. as the Scout striding along. HOW DARE THEY!!! Well, they dared very well. I learned that even sacred stuff like Scouting can be grist for the satire mill. Context is everything. But there's humor and then there's...

#3... Context is everything. Catholic priests, Army generals (thank you Bill Mauldin), Quaker elders, Scoutmasters that can laugh at them selves will find themselves better respected and even liked. But there is Humor and then there is Insult, and the divider is often a little blurry and not often straight.

Sometimes best to err on the side of NOT offending, and missing the questionable laugh.

 

Consider your context, in the telling AND in the listening...

 

YiS until...

 

 

[packsaddle]

My wife is fond of this one. I haven't met the person yet who is offended by it.

A woman decides, just for fun, to visit a fortuneteller.

The fortuneteller examines her palm, looks at some cards and rolls some bones on the table. Then she says,

"I have terrible news. Your husband is going to die a horrible, violent death."

The woman is stunned. She had not expected a fortune like this. She almost faints but after gathering herself for a few moments, she takes the fortuneteller's hands and asks,

"Tell me, I have to know....will I be convicted?"

[Hunt]

"I firmly believe that if you happen to be part of the object group, and you find a joke offensive, GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON. I'll bet that everyone at some point in their life has told a joke at someone else's expense. It is part of life - always has been and always will be. Accept that diversity in our society means that there will always be people (good people) who enjoy poking a little fun at someone else. And I think we all know that a pendulum swings both ways. If you don't identify with a group's/person's behavior, remove yourself from the situation."

 

Are you perhaps a white, American male? I'm not sure I've ever heard this argument made by anybody who wasn't. Strange, isn't it?

[LongHaul]

Hunt,

Now I am offended! Just because, being a White, American (Please note the absence of a hyphen), Male, I am a member of a group which; has at one time or another exploited, subjugated, or suppressed every other race and ethnic group on this planet. Been largely responsible for directly or indirectly polluting every part of this planet including the Polar Regions and highest mountains, does not mean that we, as a group, are insensitive to being singled out for ridicule. In particular when said ridicule comes from a non member.

LongHaul

 

 

 

[evmori]

Hey I resemble every remark in this thread!

[Oak Tree]

Once upon a time my corporation mandated that I take a diversity class. It wasn't as bad as I'd anticipated. One of the interesting insights I got was that white males do not in general perceive themselves to have advantages. They may accept that other groups have some disadvantages (either real or perceived), but that's a different mental implication. It can be hard to put yourself into a position of someone else who comes from a group that really does perceive themselves as disadvantaged and who believes that the white men have all the advantages.

 

So Hunt, I agree that white men are more likely to make the argument. There is a tendency among them to think that everyone is equal and we should all be able to poke fun at one another on a level playing field. They don't understand how strongly the other groups feel that the playing field is not level.

 

But just to throw out a counter-example, here's a black guy telling white people to "get over it". http://blogs.chron.com/laugh101/archives/2006/03/white_people_st.html

 

Oak Tree

[LongHaul]

Ok lets go there. I am a White Male. I am not a college graduate. My wife and I combined do not earn over 50,000 a year. I do not have a white collar job. Just how do I have an advantage over non white non males? In the 70s to get non skilled jobs for good pay you had to be Black and better yet female, I didnt qualify. My wife worked for our school district which had to lay off white non tenured personnel to hire Black personnel to comply with State and Federal guidelines. Then Reagan came along and everyone was out of work so it didnt matter. In the upper positions there is discrimination and always has been, not my doing, but at the lower end? Not all White Males have an advantage, and forgetting this is no less bias and offensive than making sweeping and all inclusive declarations about any group.

LongHaul

 

[Hunt]

"Just how do I have an advantage over non white non males?"

 

When you go into a nice store, do the clerks follow you around because they are afraid you are there to steal? Have you ever been pulled over because the police were wondering what you were doing in the wrong neighborhood? Have you ever had anybody question whether you were really an American citizen or not because of your name? This stuff still happens, and for people to whom it has happened, racially-based jokes at their expense just aren't that funny. Granted, part of the reason whites on average have more advantages than blacks on average is economic, but that isn't all of it. It's funny when the few and the weak are able to put one over on the strong and the many, but the reverse is just not as funny.

[LongHaul]

Hunt,

Granted, part of the reason whites on average have more advantages than blacks on average is economic, but that isn't all of it. Please explain to me where being white and/or male gives me an advantage that isnt economically driven.

        I could answer your questions but you really would not like my answers because they dont fit your profile. Yes, you are guilty of profiling. You are supporting the notion that basing a decision on the fact that a person is White and Male is justified. As human beings we, for the most part cant help making value judgments for this kind, we can learn not to act on them. Your position seems to indicate that you have accepted the premises that being born a white male imparts on one an original sin for which some reparation is due non white males. We, white males, must take certain things into consideration when dealing with others and this is justified. We, white males, must understand that we are viewed in a certain light and this is justified. Guilt by association..but only for white males.

LongHaul