How much Military in Scouting?

[Hunt]

"A little regimentation/disciple goes a long way to build a esprit-de-corps."

 

But who imposes this regimentation and discipline? If it's imposed by adult leaders, I think the esprit is illusory.

[Gonzo1]

I think it depends.

Adults have to teach some skills, right? If thte boys don't have the skills (any skills), who will teach the skills?

 

On the other hand, the first scouts were trained to do some of the tasks that soldiers couldn't do at Mafeking because of a shortage of manpower, right? I know I'm not the best Scouting historian, but I think this is right. Also, today, the BSA frowns on scouts wearing camoflauge because of a military conotation. But then again, Sea Scouts get surplus Navy uniforms, whites, khaki and blues.

 

I think it's OK if boys are taught to say yes sir instead of uh huh or yeah. But I don't think they need to snap to attention when the SPL or SM walk into a room. I don't think scouts necessarily think scouts need to do physical training (PT) or calisthenics in formation or do a battallion 5 mile run either.

 

I think in the end, it depends on the unit.

 

[John-in-KC]

Gonzo said, in part:

 

"Adults have to teach some skills, right? If thte boys don't have the skills (any skills), who will teach the skills?"

 

If the unit is new, the adult may have to teach the skill THE FIRST TIME to a boy, and help him attain mastery. Then he can teach others. Even then, I submit there are alternatives: What about the new Troop asking for assistance from youth of a neighboring Troop?"

 

It's one of those things 21CWB teaches: Think outside the box!

 

[fgoodwin]

I know of a troop (that will remain unidentified to protect the innocent) that includes a requirement in its parent handbook that Scout belts be worn with "brass-on-brass".

 

I've heard an ASM counsel one of his charges that the boy wasn't wearing his uniform properly because the boy hadn't observed the "gig line" correctly.

 

I'm waiting for the next requirements that boots be polished, laces be tucked in, heads be covered outdoors at all times and no hands allowed in the pants pockets!

 

BTW: in case you're wondering, none of these requirements is per the Scout HB or uniform inspection sheet.

[Gonzo1]

Sheesh,

 

John-in-KC: Please send me a PM with your private email address.

 

Sure, adults teach some skills, usually once, I think it's OK to ask for assistance from another troop too.

 

Fgoodwin,

I think brass on brass looks better, it's not a requirement though.

Nowadays, youth don't wear shoes that need polishing (in general). I think some things can be taken way too far, like laces and headgear.

 

 

[Lisabob]

FWIW Fscouter, the CD from "my" woodbadge course required both "brass on brass" and the "gig line" thing whenever we had uniform inspections. Of course my general sense of this person was that he was more interested in wielding power than in leading anyway, as is often the case with those who get so caught up in the details that they lose sight of the larger picture.

 

As for marching and drilling. A former SM in my son's troop really went all out on this one, marching drills at weekly troop meetings, etc.. Result: many boys left and joined another troop, many others just quit, and this former SM is no longer involved. His influence carries on among some of the older scouts who elected to stay though. They, in turn, have tried on occasion to instill this desire to be quasi-militaristic in the younger scouts. Largely unsuccessfully I might add. So my perception is that this militaristic business tends to take hold and get out of hand when one or both of the following circumstances are in play:

1) you have some adult leaders who really want to push this agenda

2) you have a large percentage of older boys who have either "survived" these drills and now feel it is time to inflict them on new scouts or who actually like doing drills - but this last, in my view, is probably quite rare.

 

 

[kraut-60]

I know there are many Scouters who have served in our armed forces and have much to contribute to Scouting from their experiences while in uniform.

 

These contributions should not include training Scouts in matters and subjects that are military oriented and geared away from the BSA program.

 

I have had to work hard at having the military influence limited to eliminated in the troop I serve in. The biggest problem was not an adult, but a Scout who insisted on mixing Scout and military uniform parts. This same Scout also used military issue web gear and a pack in getting ready for hiking and camping.

 

I chose to let this Scout use the mil-type web gear and pack. I did this because I felt this Scout would learn better from discovering how heavy and ill-suited such gear is for use in Boy Scouting. On a hike across the bluffs at Devils Lake WI, this Scout, who is small statured...found out how poor his choice in gear was within 2 miles of starting the hike...he complained how his stuff was too heavy,..it was bouncing and banging all over,....the straps are digging into my shoulders. He had a miserable hike.

 

This same Scout is now the SPL in our troop, and he still admires most everything military, but he now knows that the gear isnt the best choice for boys to use. He no longer mixes military and BSA uniform parts as I asked him what he would think of seeing a soldier,sailor,airman or Marine wearing Scout uniform parts with a regulation military uniform? He replied it would look wrong. I then reminded him that its just as wrong to wear Scout and military uniform together.

 

When Scouts are to march in parades, I feel teaching the boys how to march in step and look smart in public arent wrong or too military. Presenting a smart appearance isnt only for the armed forces, by taking pride in how we appear does generate good self esteem and esprit de corp.

 

I served 20 years on active duty in our Navy,...I look forward to serving as long or longer with our Scouts.

[fgoodwin]

kraut60, I thank you and all members of the military (current and retired) for their service.

 

But BSA isn't the military. Its a noble goal to want your boys to look good, and I would hope they have enough pride and self-respect to want to look good themselves.

 

My beef is when ASMs and units start *requiring* adherence to military, non-BSA uniform policies (like the examples I gave above).

 

I hope it never happens, but if a Scout ever failed a rank advancement because he didn't observe the gig line or didn't get brass-on-brass with his web belt, I could certainly understand the parents of said boy taking a grievance to National -- and that troop or ASM would find itself with a lot of explaining to do.

[Hunt]

In thinking about this some more, I guess I don't see anything intrinsicly wrong with marching, saluting, brass on brass, gig line, etc., if that's what the BOYS want. I would make a few provisos though: I'd only like to see this if there are multiple troops to choose from, and this attitude is made clear to recruits from the start. That would enable people like me and my son to flee. I can attest that if you change a troop to be more like this, boys will leave. In fact, that's essentially why I left my troop, back in 19(mumble). For me, it stopped being fun. If that spit and polish stuff is fun for some boys, I don't mind if they band together. But I think that's pretty rare, and the more common case would be an adult imposing stuff like that.

[SSScout]

I had the pleasure of marching in a Big Ten University Band.

 

Esprit de Corps? oooo my yes.

Look sharp? Grades dependant not only on musicianship but uniform inspection. AND the seniors (I became one) would let you know if your 'look' wasn't.

 

Fun and Games? More than our share. We often felt we had earned the right, but never to the detriment of our reputation or image...

 

Military? Goo'ness no.

 

We were disciplined, sounded good, looked good, and represented the school in all types of situations. But the marching was for fun. (Whistling Colonel Boogie while about 50 of us "sauntered " in unison (march?) thru Notre Dame student union?) The music was because we loved music. And the Cheers were because we could, with almost impunity. WE WERE THE BAND!

 

Can a Scout Troop attain the same sense of 'belonging'? I dearly wish I could convince our Scouts of the possibility.

The Scouts we have in our Troop are of two types: more Scouty and less Scouty. The first wears the uniform, the second not so much. The older Scouts (of both types) seem to be not in the business of encouraging good uni wear. Some seek to not wear Scout pants (blue jeans) or hats (4H caps?)) or belt (pants low on the hips, loose, ya know?). Some seek to wear the necker, the hat, the trou as Scouty as possible. I have bit my lip more than once to keep from mentioning some egregious uni affectations.

So far, I have limited myself to (1) reminding color guard to tuck in shirts (Scout shirts into jeans) and (2) reminding own son that if he would be a Scout, should he not look like a Scout?

 

I find one thing especially troublesome. Sometime in the past, before my entre as an adult Scouter, the PLC had voted permission to Life and above Scouts to attend ordinary Scout occasions (ie, Troop meetings) in the red "activity" shirt. I've mentioned this to the TC, but they all say "that's a PLC decision". So, it was not unusual to see the SPL and his ASPLs and scribe etc., seated at the head table all in red.

 

The latest SPL is an Eagle of the Scouty type. I have hopes to see some new attitude. We shall see.

[Hunt]

I think there are various ways of showing and measuring esprit, as well--what I see in my son's troop is an esprit based on their shared belief that they can handle what they need to do--hiking, camping, etc., i.e., "we camped in the snow and it was four degrees." I think that's a particular kind of esprit that Scouting is very good at creating.

[SR540Beaver]

We have one military Scout. He is a good kid and a good scout....when he shows up. He is heavily involved in Civil Air Patrol and spends more time with it than the troop. He is not a stickler on the uniform. He usually wears his shirt with jeans. He certainly knows how to come to attention and salute though. His attire for campouts is usually camo BDU's and a boonie hat. His brother is involved in CAP too and only shows up occasioanlly, but he is much more relaxed and less "ate up with it" than his brother.

 

Our SM is a great guy and a good and respected SM, but he can be a fairly black and white kind of guy and has high expectations. He isn't over the top about it usually though. One expectation he has that I happen to share about 90% is that the PLC be uniformed and lead by example. He has hammered them on occasion when they start getting sloppy. At last weeks PLC, we had a PL come in with everything on except his scout pants. He had jeans on. The SM asked the PLC if he had not given them his crystal clear expectations on wearing the uniform and was there anything about it they did not understand. Everyone said yes they understood. He then asked the boy why he chose to wear jeans that night. He explained that he had outgrown his pants and his mom was going the next day to buy a new pair. The SM asked if he owned scout shorts. The boy said yes. He had another scout stand who was wearing shorts....his son. He pointed out that he wore shorts rahter than jeans to stay full class A and again asked why he had chosen not to. The boy shot back, because I chose to be warm instead. It was a cold night. The SM kind of looked shocked and dropped it. It is hard to argue with sound logic.

[CNYScouter]

For those who like Drill one of the elective for the rank of Able in the Sea Scouts is:

 

Drill: Demonstrate your ability to give and execute commands in close-order drill

 

You can get the Sea Scout Drill Manual at:

ftp://seascout.org/pub/Program/Drill_manual.pdf

 

[Hunt]

"At last weeks PLC, we had a PL come in with everything on except his scout pants. He had jeans on. The SM asked the PLC if he had not given them his crystal clear expectations on wearing the uniform and was there anything about it they did not understand. Everyone said yes they understood. He then asked the boy why he chose to wear jeans that night. He explained that he had outgrown his pants and his mom was going the next day to buy a new pair. The SM asked if he owned scout shorts. The boy said yes. He had another scout stand who was wearing shorts....his son. He pointed out that he wore shorts rahter than jeans to stay full class A and again asked why he had chosen not to. The boy shot back, because I chose to be warm instead. It was a cold night. The SM kind of looked shocked and dropped it. It is hard to argue with sound logic."

 

I was going to remark that I would have little trouble with this tale if you could replace "SM" with "SPL." Then I noticed that this occurred at the PLC meeting--not the Troop meeting. The SM should have dropped it as soon as the boy said he had outgrown his pants. That's a sensible explanation, and it wasn't worth trying to embarass the boy--an effort which backfired, by the way.

[packsaddle]

You know, my favorite belt is one with a scout camp name on it. So...brass-on-brass? What does this mean? My belt has no brass.