Merry Christmast ACLU

[Aidan_MacAnBhaird]

Love the idea purceIce! The ACLU has had some really nobel ideas, unfortunately, they also have had some of the most misguided litigation known to this country, costing millions of dollars to individuals, companies, and organizations.

 

Merlyn_LeRoy - the ACLU ensured the public schools in our neck of Texas could say absolutely nothing about Christmas, yet demanded these kids learn about a number of festivals to do with Wicca, Kwaanza, and some new age group to help "round" out their education.

 

A kid praying over his own lunch silenetly usually brought disciplinary action until someone brought it into the light of day - thanks to the ACLU.

 

Their litigators stood around the school property during "prayer around the flagpole" demanding the kids who attendend (prior to campus opening) be arrested for illegal usage of school property and illegal [association] - know that's the wrong word.

 

As a Christian, would it be offensive if I sent a Christmas blessing to a group that may have done a few good things, but in general have made this country more divisive and intollerant of Christians than in any other time in history?

 

As a Christian, I can turn the other cheek. I also have the command to love my enemies.... Instead of arguing with them, or going to court with them, I can truly love them. Bless their little socks right off. Not in spite or smite, but sincerely, genuinely, truly bless them this joyous of all seasons. We as Christians have more ability to fight back in a myriad of arenas if we would just open our eyes. Christ was the biggest extremest next to God of all time. We can take our que from him. Not in hate, or intollerance, or any other negative form. And remember, it's not the act that counts, it's the condition of the heart while the act is being committed.

 

In all humbleness and humility, my prayer for them would be that they act after thinking through a situation. I would pray that they stop concentrating on how large they can swell their coffers and start concentrating on how small the pettiness is making so many. I would pray they would grasp a tinge of Arthurian Ideals and comprehend that right makes might, not might makes right. I would pray that they would hold up the individual freedoms of a person who is Christian just as fast as a person who is Athiest. I would pray they throw out their Orwellian dogma than all are equal, just some more equal than others. I would pray that they stop taking BSA to court for things they consider acceptable by other organizations.

 

That's not harrassment. That's Christianity.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Aidan_MacAnBhaird writes:

 

Merlyn_LeRoy - the ACLU ensured the public schools in our neck of Texas could say absolutely nothing about Christmas, yet demanded these kids learn about a number of festivals to do with Wicca, Kwaanza, and some new age group to help "round" out their education.

 

Got any cites? The above contradicts what the ACLU has said for years:

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16146leg19950412.html

 

...

Teaching About Religion

 

5. Students may be taught about religion, but public schools may not teach religion. As the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly said, "t might well be said that one's education is not complete without a study of comparative religion, or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization." It would be difficult to teach art, music, literature and most social studies without considering religious influences.

 

The history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible (or other scripture)-as-literature (either as a separate course or within some other existing course), are all permissible public school subjects. It is both permissible and desirable to teach objectively about the role of religion in the history of the United States and other countries. One can teach that the Pilgrims came to this country with a particular religious vision, that Catholics and others have been subject to persecution or that many of those participating in the abolitionist, women's suffrage and civil rights movements had religious motivations.

...

 

 

A kid praying over his own lunch silenetly usually brought disciplinary action until someone brought it into the light of day - thanks to the ACLU.

 

This sentence is ambiguous - if you're saying the ACLU defended the student's rights to pray over his lunch, that's right in line with what the ACLU has said all along:

 

...

1. Students have the right to pray individually or in groups or to discuss their religious views with their peers so long as they are not disruptive. Because the Establishment Clause does not apply to purely private speech, students enjoy the right to read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, pray before tests, and discuss religion with other willing student listeners.

...

 

 

Their litigators stood around the school property during "prayer around the flagpole" demanding the kids who attendend (prior to campus opening) be arrested for illegal usage of school property and illegal [association] - know that's the wrong word.

 

Again, do you have any cites? This is in direct contradiction to what the ACLU has said:

 

...

"See You at the Pole"

 

11. Student participation in before- or after-school events, such as "see you at the pole," is permissible. School officials, acting in an official capacity, may neither discourage nor encourage participation in such an event.

...

 

 

Where are you getting your information? A lot of organizations lie about the ACLU.

 

I would pray that they stop taking BSA to court for things they consider acceptable by other organizations.

 

What are you referring to here? I don't see the ACLU doing this at all.

 

Pre-Dale, the ACLU argued that the BSA was a public accommodation, and thus was subject to New Jersey's antidiscrimination laws; they would not consider discrimination by any other public accommodation acceptable, either.

 

Post-Dale, the BSA is now established as a private, discriminatory organization - yet thousands of public schools own & operate private, discriminatory Scout units. The ACLU would not consider this acceptable by any organization, not just when done by the BSA. The same is true of e.g. publically financed subsidies for berths, parkland, and jamborees.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[hops_scout]

I disagree with the ACLU because I haven't found one thing yet where they argued a point that I was FOR.

 

Gonzo, you said June would be empty on your "holiday tree." You forgot June has Flag Day and the US Army's Birthday on June 14. Also, maybe put a few college baseball team items on there to celebrate the College World Series being held in the month of June. And heck, you might as well throw the tree up right now to celebrate Halloween coming up, Thanksgiving's in a month. Might as well get started now!

[Gonzo1]

Hops Scout,

 

I must have been distracted, thanks for keeping me straight.

 

Being an Army veteran, how could I forget Flag Day and Army Birthday.

 

June and July will be Red, White and Blue. Not sure what to do with August. Maybe we'll strip off the branches, freshen them up and leave up the pole. Red, White and Blue again for September with Labor Day and 911 and all. Halloween, Veterans Day, and Thangksgiving are coming up now. Some more patriotism for Dec 7 and then Christmas!

 

We're getting the stuff out next weekend! Let the fen begin!!!

 

Merry Christmas and HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! (All of them)

 

p.s. I really do wish everyone a Merry Christmas unless I know the individual to be of a non-Christian faith. I'm not that insensitive.

I'm also not one of these kooks who leave the Christmas lights on the house year round.

 

[DanKroh]

"I disagree with the ACLU because I haven't found one thing yet where they argued a point that I was FOR."

 

Not *one*, hops_scout?

 

So then I guess you thought it was ok for school officials to prevent a 2nd grader from singing a religious song in an after-school talent show, and the ACLU should not have filed a suit to protect her freedom of religious expression?

 

Or maybe you feel that a baptist church in Georgia should be denied a zoning permit to build a permanent house of worship, and the ACLU should not have fought for them?

 

I think if you can't find even one point that you think they should have argued for, then you haven't looked very hard.

 

Yes, there are things that they do that don't sit well with me either, but I'm not willing to demonize the entire organization and everyone who works for them because of it.

[evmori]

Aidan_MacAnBhaird, excellent post!

 

The ACLU has a few times actually defended our rights. But most of the time, they are misguided by their own agenda.

 

Merlyn,

Makes no difference where those examples happened. All that matter is that they did happen.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"Makes no difference where those examples happened. All that matter is that they did happen."

 

Ah, but did they happen? For example, I would have to see proof that the "ACLU" demanded that students gathered at the flagpole to pray be arrested. I don't believe that this would be consistent with the ACLU's position, and thus I have trouble believing it to be true.

 

If you spend five minutes looking at ACLU's website, a fair observer would would conclude that ACLU addresses many different issues, and it is likely that most people would agree with many of them. It is certainly true that ACLU's take on controversial issues is usually (but not always) the liberal side of the issue (ie., against death penalty, pro-abortion rights, etc.). But I think it's also fair to say that ACLU devotes a fair amount of its energy to protecting the rights of really powerless people, like prisoners and the poor.

[Aidan_MacAnBhaird]

Hi Merlyn - Sorry for the confusion - I was in a rush & did not even read before sending.

 

In every single one of those cases I was present. I don't know about cites. The e-mails and info I would get from the ACLU regarding cases I personally saw was usually quite different than the actual actions and statements made without cameras rolling. Personally, I found their tactics deplorable. Their soundbites and web bits are either non-existent or relatively contrary to the actual acts and statements I witnessed.

 

I have no idea where they stand on "prayer around the flagpole" now. At the time it came to a head at the high school where I graduated, the ACLU was throwing their weight high and mightely at the school. The students would not back down, so the school stated that since they couldn't afford protracted litigation from the ACLU, they would have any student found praying on the campus, or meeting in groups and praying (around the flagpole or not) prior to the opening of school then they would have them arrested. Those of us that came out as contientous observers were alum back from university and working in the region. The police (who really didn't want to be there), ACLU, and the observers (who were not organized but had each heard of the problem and chose to attend independently) all ended up across the street from the flagpole. To my surprise, it was the same principal, and boy, he obviously wished the whole thing would just go away. (This is a HS larger than some college campuses.)The ACLU guys kept asking what firm everyone was with. The principal came over to see who all showed up, and was surprised to see so many alum. He asked each of the people why they were there, and to a person, all answered that if he tried to have those children arrested, they would make sure under no uncertain terms we would go with him. He asked how long we had been planning this, and was surprised to find none of us had any idea the others would show up. The ACLU guys jumped in their cars and left just as the kids were starting to gather around the pole.

 

The child that prayed over lunch was a new entry from a private school. He went through lunch line, sat down, bowed his head, started to look up to dig in, and was yanked out of his seat by a teacher. He as taken down a hall and told in no uncertain terms that it was offensive and unacceptable behavior. The school backed the teacher. Their reasoning was that someone had got the ACLU invloved with the school because any allowance of any Christian act or symbolism was considered promotion by the school. There were a number of conferences and back and forth with parents about this. It was never resolved.

 

The middle school the next year took out any reference to Christmas, but started teaching alternative holiday traditions. That is fine,except they disallowed any teaching about Christmas. The kids learned about Ramadan, the Jewish Festivals, and about 5 or more other holiday celebrations from other religions for about 6 weeks prior to "winter break." (1 week per religion) Parents praised the new curriculum, but questioned why there was no presentation of Christmas. The ACLU stepped in and stated that their belief was that any mention of any event, act, or belief regarding Christianity would hold that the school promoted Christianity. The parents were relieved, thinking the ACLU reps in front of them had no idea that 6 weeks had already been spent on everything EXCEPT Christmas. They made it well known that they were in fact aware, and alluded to the "assistance" they had given the school in creating the new curriculum in the first place. People started to get miffed. The head ACLU rep present stated that the constitution was quite clear, the founding fathers only concern was the seperation of the Christian Church from the state. Anything else was not an issue.

 

So Merlyn, I don't really care what the ACLU puts out in its little bits and bites to the public. In these three instances, I got to watch them up-close and personal. They weren't pleasant, they made no attempt to reason with anyone, to be civil with anyone, or even appear open to any dialogue whatsoever. Until I have a direct positive experience with them, I won't believe a smidgen of what they say.

 

With the third time being a charm, I found a way to get on a couple of their "activist" lists. I was curious as to whether the group in that region was just a little too cooked in the sun, or if this was condoned. From the tone of the information I received, and the invitations to push around "new found" targets, I came to the realization that on the underside, this is who these people really were.

 

So you can ask for cites till the cows come home. Until I see and interact with them directly, they are about as valuable as a tick with Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever to me. And as for the berth situation, did you bother to see the selectiveness of the other organizations receiving free berth space. This is a hate the BSA/Gay issue only. If they were all that concerned about equality, they would stop hiding some of the other organizations with free berths. In the meantime, I will continue to hope they someday become what they say they are.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

So you have no cites...Can you at least name the high school where you claim the praying at the pole incidents took place? It looks like there would've been some news coverage at the time. You haven't given any indication where these incidents supposedly took place, and I don't see any reason why you would need to keep it a secret.

 

And yes, I *do* know what other organizations get free berths, as several newspaper accounts have named them: the Berkeley Yacht Club, the Cal Sailing Club, and the Nautilus Institute. All of them have to meet the city's nondiscrimination requirements to qualify for free berths. What's the "selectiveness" you refer to?

[Aidan_MacAnBhaird]

 

That is correct Merlyn. These incidences took place about 7 years ago. I did not provide the city or school districts names as they have been through enough. There was some news coverage of the flagpole event, which is how the various alums including myself found out about it. The others did not.

 

This is an open forum. There is no guarantee any of the people reading these posts or even the posters themselves are involved in scouts. There is no need to have an untold number of viewers, and the people to whom they send copies of or redirect to these posts calling any school districts. This was a very large point of contention in this community, but as it was over 5 years ago (remember, I've changed states) there is probably not a good deal of info remaining except with the districts themselves. Contacting them would just be rude.

 

If you are unsure of the veracity of these statements, that is your prerogative. I provided further detail for your edification, but this is getting off point of the thread. The point is the ACLU, in my opinion, based on personal first-hand experience, has a public consumption policy and a non-public consumption policy. Take it however you want it. That is my opinion based on personal experience. You can't verify that in an e-news clip.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well, I might have expected that no cites would be forthcoming; that seems to be fairly common with anti-ACLU stories.

 

Of course, if the ACLU did act as such a Jekyll-and-Hyde manner, how do they get and keep new members? People who join expect the ACLU to act according to their stated principles, so if the ACLU says one thing, but supposedly acts totally opposite to their stated principles, the people who joined due to the ACLU's public statements would be leaving in droves. But I don't see that happening, either.

[Lisabob]

I think one of the problems with regard to the ACLU is that people use it as a scapegoat for not doing things that they never really wanted to do in the first place. "Oh, we can't do that or the ACLU will get us." When in reality, the ACLU does not - by it's own admission - take some of the positions ascribed to it.

 

From personal experience (for whatever currency that's worth on this forum) I also know that there are a lot of school administrators out there who do not have a clue about what they may, and may not actually do. They over-react to a point of ridiculousness, then when challenged, they blame the supposed threat of a lawsuit brought on by the ACLU to cover their over-reactions. So why should we blame the ACLU in those cases? Better to blame certain of the goof balls elected to our school boards and hired as school administrators.

 

And then there's press coverage. Folks, the ACLU exists to support civil liberties and rights for all. But the stories that tend to get news coverage are the more sensational ones. As an example, a few yeas ago the ACLU helped a local high school student in Dearborn MI. He had been suspended for wearing T shirts to school with anti-Bush political messages. The shirts were offensive to some, it is true. But the ACLU helped him because the US Supreme Court has said in the past that such actions constitute symbolic political speech and are thus protected by the first amendment (see the Tinker case during the Vietnam war era). Now this instance got A LOT of news coverage because it was sensational. Because Dearborn has a large Arab-American community. Because we were just starting the war with Iraq at the time. Here's a cite for the story: http://www.aclumich.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=316

 

Around the same time the ACLU supported the right of an 82 year old farmer to make calls to the Michigan department of agriculture demanding that they enforce state law with regard to the spraying of liquid manure, or at least that someone return his calls with some information. For his efforts to petition government for redress of grievances (part of the 1st amendment) he was charged with obscenity and was being threatened with jail and a fine.

 

More recently in Michigan the ACLU has encouraged the state dept of natural resources to stop requiring religious groups to seek special permission to engage in religious behavior in state parks.

 

Here's a snip from the Battle Creek MI newspaper editorial on the subject:

 

"The Michigan Department of Natural Resources has done something that government agencies sometimes are reluctant to do: Abandon a rule that was unfair, ineffective and unneeded.

 

The DNR has dropped a policy, revised in 1999, that required religious groups that wished to "solicit, canvass or proselytize" in a state park to submit a written request for the activity and require participants to wear identification tags.

 

The policy came to light after the Rev. William Stein of Battle Creek asked permission last May to hold seven summer baptism services at Eagle Lake at Fort Custer Recreation Area. Stein was denied permission for the first two services, which he did not hold. He eventually obtained a permit for the remaining five baptism services and they were held with no problems at Eagle Lake.

 

The American Civil Liberties Union came to the defense of Stein and his Baptism USA Ministries, challenging the DNR policy as an unconstitutional infringement on the freedoms of speech and religion. "

 

Here's a link to the rest of the story:

http://www.aclumich.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=154

(Sorry I couldn't link directly to the Battle Creek paper - you have to be a subscriber to do so)

 

So ok, here's the thing. Lots of people - at least in MI - have heard about the Dearborn case. Very few - even in MI - have heard about the other two. Why? Because it isn't terribly exciting news coverage, certainly not grist for the national info-tainment industry (CNN and the like). I'm willing to bet many people here would even agree with the stance the ACLU took in at least two of the above three instances...

 

Go ahead and send your Christmas cards to the ACLU. Probably a lot of ACLU employees are Christians anyway - after all, the majority of Americans are Christian. And the ACLU has in the past defended the rights of Christians in numerous cases too. So maybe they'll appreciate your heart-felt wishes for a blessed holiday.

 

But don't villainize an organization that you might need yourself, one day if, like the farmer above, you suddenly find yourself being criminalized by your gov't for expressing your opinion. Or when gov't/school leaders over-react and tell you that you can't engage in reasonable religious practices, like the minister above. Or when some gov't official tries to compell you to speak/avow belief that you don't hold. Etc. And be careful when you suppose that every time someone pulls out the ACLU boogie-man, that what they're telling you is necessarily true.

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

Well said.

[OldGreyEagle]

Speaking of ironies,well somebody was somewhere...

 

it occurs to me that the ACLU and the BSA have many similarities. Both are nationally known institutions that have a habbit of making headlines. Another similarity is both do much good that most people never see or hear about. Such as the Eagle project that restores an old Cemetary or the ACLU actions in Michigan that Lisa'bob mentioned . When you think about it, the general public perception of both the BSA and the ACLU could use a little rehab so I have this idea. ::trumpet blast:: How about an ACLU activity patch? I thought about it when I was reading the MPAA thread. Boys who finish would get a patch in the shpae of the ACLU logo, just the thing to sew on your patch vest! Requirements would be to visit the local ACLU office or talk with a ACLU representative. It may do the youth good to see ACLU employees don't necessarily have horns sprouting from their foreheads and talk pretty much the same as me and you. They could talk about what issues the local ACLU has been involved with. Many times I am sure the ACLU is active in the community but get little or no mention unless its a hot button issue and then its national attention just like the BSA. The discussion could center around local, state and regional issues. It wouldnt hurt to have future citizens knowledgeable about a private organization that exists to protect everyone's rights. Most of all I want to see the headline, "ACLU and Boy Scouts partner" Just reading that headline might qualify as a cardio workout for some people I know.

[SR540Beaver]

Aidan,

 

Sorry, but saying, "because I said so" really doesn't count. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you a liar. It is just that you need to be able to prove and support your claims if you want them to be taken seriously. If this were a debate in a school classroom, you'd lose for not being able to cite references to back up your arguments.

 

I agree with others about the good the ACLU does do. I challenge everyone to google up your state ACLU chapter and take a look at the cases they have taken on. Some might surprise you. Lets keep in mind that the ACLU has defended folks like Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh in the past. Why? Because their civil rights were being denied by the government. That is what the ACLU exists for. While you might not like every case they take on, be glad that they exist and that they are blind to popular opinion and take cases based purely on rights violations.