I'm so conflicted!

[scoutldr]

OK, I've been home sick for 2 days, so I've spent a lot of time surfing the internet. As I've said, I'm Lutheran by birth, from a long line of Pennsylvania German Lutherans, and a Scouter with 32 years of service stars. I am an Eagle Scout and earned the Pro Deo et Patria religious award. I was baptized and confirmed in the Church, and was active in Luther League (youth group), and served on Church Council for two terms, and was a substitute organist. My life growing up consisted of Church and Scouting. Now I'm afraid I may have to choose. I will say up front that my own beliefs are more aligned with the church than with the BSA policy. My church's stand on gay/lesbians is that we are to accept them and minister to their needs, but they will not (yet) be ordained ministers. From the last churchwide assembly the following resolution was passed: Recommendation for Assembly Action Majority vote required WHEREAS, this church holds that marriage is a lifelong covenant of faithfulness between a man and a woman (Message on Sexuality: Some Common Convictions [1996], page 3); and WHEREAS, the Conference of Bishops in October 1993 stated, We, as the Conference of Bishops of the ELCA, recognize that there is basis neither in Scripture nor tradition for the establishment of an official ceremony by this church for the blessing of a homosexual relationship. We, therefore, do not approve such a ceremony as an official action of this churchs ministry. Nevertheless, we express trust in and will continue dialogue with those pastors and congregations who are in ministry with gay and lesbian persons, and affirm their desire to explore the best ways to provide pastoral care for all to whom they minister (CB93.10.25); therefore, be it RESOLVED, that the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America continue to respect the guidance of the 1993 statement of the Conference of Bishops; and be it further RESOLVED, that this church welcome gay and lesbian persons into its life (as stated in Churchwide Assembly resolutions from 1991, 1995, and 1999), and trust pastors and congregations to discern ways to provide faithful pastoral care to same-sex couples.

 

An even bigger question is how do ELCA churches (and other denominations with similar stances) reconcile chartering BSA units if they are forced by the BSA to actively discriminate and deny gay/lesbian Scouts and Scouters. I'm afraid the BSA is painting themselves into a corner.

[packsaddle]

It is a question I have wondered about as well. I see two ways to answer it. The conflict exists, I think, for a large and growing number of denominations with the UUA as the most visible example of the conflict. The two ways:

First, as in some UUA churches/fellowships, you no longer charter the units. You're essentially out.

Second, the churches that differ with BSA on this policy can simply ignore the policy and adopt a 'local option' sort of approach (which I believe would solve most of the problem for everyone). At present this is risky and it dodges the question, but it is a way to proceed. And let's face it, for whatever reason and with regard to other aspects of the program, local option seems to be rampant throughout the nation already.

 

It is important to remember that BSA is a large organization, topheavy with people whose duties are devoted to fundraising. For many up there, it really is all about money (to quote Rush). This is an opportunity to use their avarice to our advantage. If enough of these denominations adopted a grass-roots local option approach, the potential loss of numbers and funds from ejecting so many units may turn the heads of BSA. Never underestimate the power of greed.

 

[Eamonn]

I have no idea what changes the BSA might make in the future.

The way I read what the BSA is stating there isn't at this time any wiggle room when it comes to avowed gay leaders:

"We believe an avowed homosexual is not a role model for the values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Boy Scouting makes no effort to discover the sexual orientation of any person. Scouting's message is compromised when prospective leaders present themselves as role models inconsistent with Boy Scouting's understanding of the Scout Oath and Law"

While it may seem a harsh thing to say. But right now if you are unable to accept the BSA stand point. Then this isn't the organization for you.

My great hope is that one day the BSA will decide to allow value based organizations who charter Scouting units the opportunity setting their own membership standards.

But even this could open an entire new debate. What happens to those who serve at a level that isn't the unit level?

If the Lutherans are OK with Gay Leaders and the Roman Catholics aren't, what happens when the Lutheran Unit Commissioner serving the RC Unit is Gay?

Back in the UK there isn't any policy stating that avowed Gays can't be Leaders. From what I have seen no one seems to take any notice one way or the other.While I'm sure there has to be some openly gay leaders, when they stated their position there wasn't a flood of new leaders waiting in the wings to take over local Scouting units.

Eamonn.

 

[GernBlansten]

Simple solution. Switch from an ELCA church to a Missouri Synod church. I think you will find their approach to homosexuality more in line with the BSA. Same dull hymns and church services.

 

The ELCA churches have become far more liberal than most other protestant denominations. A few years ago, at my grandfather's funeral back in rural Minnesota, I was shocked that a woman was the pastor of the church. She was in her mid 50s, never married, well you know what I mean. Nice lady. Gave the typical dry sermon and droning hymns I had known from my youth.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Your Church's proclamation is not condoning homosexual marriages or homosexuality but they are affirming pastoral care for all that enter. The BSA and the Church sponsor still must approve all leadership in any Scout unit. Obviously, homosexuals are not allowed to be leaders in your Church or in Scouting. The only difference has to do with if you can accept those that are different. fb

[Gonzo1]

Scoutldr,

Sorry to hear about your conflict.

you said: .......my own beliefs are more aligned with the church than with the BSA policy. And you said: ...this church holds that marriage is a lifelong covenant of faithfulness between a man and a woman

 

It seems that you want to minister to the needs of homosexuals, but do not approve of gay marriage. It appears that your church wants to minister to gays, but not marry them. So they welcome gay couples but won't perform marriages.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but your church won't marry gays, but wants to minister to them. It seems that there shouldn't be a problem, no gays in your church's scout unit.

 

BSA's policy and rules prohibit gay members, we all know that.

 

Look at another situation. Suppose a club existed nationwide for tall ballroom dancers. In order to join, members must be 6 feet tall in stocking feet and dance fox-trot and waltz at the dances. I love dancing, but I want to join too, but I'm only 5'9". I know the waltz and fox trot, can I join? I can't, because I don't meet the memship criteria. But i can start a group for short dancers.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, tough issue, scoutldr.

 

If your question is "What choice should I make as an individual?" my question back would be "How many things do you participate in where you agree 100%?"

 

I do not agree 100% with da actions of the government of the United States. Some policies I find misguided. A few I find reprehensible or downright wicked. Many I support. I still choose to be an American. Same lack of 100% agreement with my church, my employer, da BSA, and (especially) Mrs. Beavah . But I stick with 'em all anyway.

 

If we all decide that we will only be a part of communities and organizations that we agree with 100%, then we will have no communities outside of cults, eh? And if we all insist that every organization should change and do everything da way we want, that's not very Courteous, and not very wise.

 

So if yeh can do Good Works in BSA Scoutin', do 'em. And in your second hour a week, if yeh feel so called, do other good works with gay and lesbian couples in your church. Da Bible calls us to be perfect in our own personal charity, not to insist that everybody else be perfect, eh?

 

Now, if your question is "Should I as an ELCA recommend to my pastor that we drop the charters on our units?" I'd say you should tell your pastor the truth. The BSA has this requirement, but da BSA has also been a good partner in other ways, and the program is good for the kids in it (and as a member, s/he can send a COR to help vote on BSA policy and serve on relationship committees).

 

After that, it's his/her call, eh?

 

 

[red feather]

Thanks Beavah for stating it better than I could.

 

ding

yis

 

 

[EagleInKY]

Well put Beavah.

[scoutldr]

Thanks, Beav for the perspective. You make a lot of sense (most of the time :-).

 

I should add that I first met Mrs. Scoutldr in 8th grade Confirmation class, and I was smitten. 39 years later, I still get smote regularly.

 

I should also say that my church, an ELCA congregation does not currently charter a unit, although they did until about a year ago. My unit, a Troop, is chartered to a UMC. Next time I'm sick, I'll scour the internet for the UMC doctrine on the issue.

 

I think that it's just a matter of time before the ELCA and other denominations who are liberalizing their views on gay/lesbian relationships figure out that the BSA policy is anathema to their ministry, at least in this area.

 

My mother's funeral was also officiated by a female Pastor. She was great!

 

 

[Trevorum]

Yep, Beavah always has good advice. If you can overlook his accent!