I need Guidance!

[packsaddle]

Gonzo1, I'm intrigued by your mention of a hypothetical female who might 'pass' as a boy (the androgynous girl). Let's stick with that. How do you propose to handle that situation? What test will you, as a leader, perform to detect the truth of the matter?

Keep in mind I've seen some boys with very similar 'developments' (and very impressive ones, I might add) that reversed with maturity. This is not uncommon. Just trying to keep things 'pure'.

[Gonzo1]

Packsaddle,

I brought it up as a hypothetical situation ONLY.

If Chris or Terry start to develop, you could ask the parents about it. You could wait and see. If William starts to 'develop', he just might be overweight or have some other problem which me may grow out of.

 

The bottom line is this:

If you are a BOY, not homosexual and believe in God, meet other requirements for memberhsip, it's A OK. If not, like if someone proclaims that they are agnostic, you can't be in BSA.

 

I didn't make the rules, BSA made the rules.

 

I know a scouter with 58 years of scouting service, has a 14 year old granddaughter and hopes that BSA will someday admit girls, because she would make a fine scout. I reminded him that she can't pass the physical exam, she's a girl.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Gonzo, I assume you told your scouter buddy about the Venturing Program, or he already knows about it? His grand daughter is very welcome right now!

[scoutingagain]

Well I've followed this thread for a while and believe that given the answer the scout gave at the BOR, appropriate follow up questions might be something along the lines of:

 

"You have stated Trustworthy is an important point of the

Scout Law. Are you truthful to yourself when you recite the Oath and Law? Including the parts about Duty to God and a Scout is Reverent?"

 

If the scout answers in the affirmative, I'd say he meets the membership requirements and move on.

 

If he answers that he has been lying to himself all those times he's repeated the Oath and Law, I would suspend the

BOR and suggest the scout talk to his family and family religious leaders about his faith, and suggest he explore other belief systems that would allow him to live up to the scout Oath and Law in good faith.

 

If he returns after a couple of months and can decribe conversations with his parents, religious leader and other faith systems, and has come to the conclusion he does not meet the membership requirements of the BSA he has made his own determination. I would say I was sorry that he feels that way and that if he were to change his mind, and if at some point in the future, determined he did meet the membership requirements he would be welcomed back.

 

SA

[Gonzo1]

OGE,

Of course I mentioned it. He's aware, the parents are aware, I don't recall why she isn't in it. I'll ask again tomorrow. Besides, she brings a friend when her brother has webelos/cub activities, so they would get 2 for 1.

 

SA,

I think you summarized it well.

[Hunt]

While there is material on BSA websites that says that "atheists and agnostics" may not be members of BSA, these words, as far as I understand, do not appear in the DRP or in BSA's bylaws. Thus, there is no indication of what definition of "agnostic" is being used in those discussions, or what official force (if any) they are supposed to have. I see nothing that requires us to assume that because a boy calls himself an "agnostic" that he cannot qualify for BSA membership, as long as he is is willing to recite and live by the Oath and Law. After all, an agnostic may believe in God even though he thinks there is no tangible evidence of God's existence.

Again, when the head of Scouting says we don't ask those questions of boys, and there is nothing in any of the training materials I know about that instructs us to extract this information and expell non-believers, I continue to believe that volunteer leaders at the unit level should respect BSA's totally non-sectarian nature and refrain from dissecting boys' religious beliefs unless they unequivocally state that they are atheists.

[John-in-KC]

Mark,

 

First and foremost, please keep us informed as you go down this trail.

 

This is a very tough can of worms, otoh, not every Scout can (or perhaps should) make it to Eagle. Some specific comments...

 

- Continuing the BOR, as I think Mark did, and drilling into where the boy is on his faith journey feels like the right thing to do. Even if we lose him from Scouting, the questions will help him define who he is.

 

- We've not talked about resources here: Have you consulted, quietly, with District/Council advancement people, as well as the Council Chaplain (if there be one)? Inviting a Pastor who is also a Scouter and understands young adult faith struggles to come to the follow-on BOR may help draw the young man out.

 

- If it's time for the young man to end his Scouting experience, then help him to draw that conclusion on his own .

 

NOW, JUMPING TO THE TENDERFOOT:

 

This is a no-brainer. BSA recognizes the Buddhist religious awards. They're inside the tent. No need to worry any more on this one. In fact, how about encouraging him to earn his religious award??!!! My source is the friendly folks at PRAY. Remember, Mark Hazelwood, the Executive Director, is on the Religious Relationships Committee of the National Council.

[Trevorum]

John, we should remind everyone that PRAY is a clearinghouse only, and does not represent all of the religious awards that have been recognized by BSA. Some awards have no connection with, and are not available through PRAY.

 

Furthermore, the existence (or not) of a religious award has no bearing on whether or not a faith is "inside the BSA tent". There are many perfectly fine religions which do not have a religious award or whose award has not been approved for uniform wear by BSA. (For example, the Hart and Crescent which we have discussed elsewhere on these forums.) Adherents of these faiths are nonetheless welcome as BSA members.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Furthermore, even if a scout is a member of a religion that has a recognized religious award, that's no guarantee that the scout meets the BSA's religious requirements, since it's still perfectly possible to be e.g. a Buddhist or a Jew and also an atheist.

[mk9750]

Once again, thanks for all the guidance.

 

We tried to get together with the Scout on Tusday night. ("we" is the original 3 BoR members, plus the Scoutmaster). We had hoped the Scout would want to include his parents, but he did not. The Scout talked to his parents about the issue during the intervening week, and were quite upset. However, they were upset more about what this might do to their son making Eagle. The family has never been very religious (I had forgotten this until I was reminded about it in the last week, but they once stopped him from doing a Scripture reading at Mass for Scout Sunday, without ever really giving a reason except they were uncomfortable with it). But they were definately not happy that their son was jeopardizing his chance to make Eagle. In that this guy is 17, as much as I would normally preferred to include his parents in this discussion, I have no qualms excluding them if the Scout desires.

 

Unfortunately, the environment wasn't good for a conversation. We had a Webelos Den visiting, and the Scoutmaster's attention needed to be more on answering questions from Cub parents. In addition, it just seemed like every time the rest of us started into the conversation again, the group of Cub parents kind of drifted too close to our conversation. So we got very little accomplished.

 

What we did discuss was based on the first two questions I asked: 1- How do you define being agnostic?, and 2 - Tell us how whatever belief system you have guides your actions and decisions. The boy had obviously given his position more thought to be prepared for our conversation Tuesday. He answered that he perssonally "leans toward there being a God because no one has disproved it to me". But when he got to talking about what guided his actions, he centered on what he feels is right, and what society deems to be the right thing to do. I think I was pretty obvious when I tried to get him to discuss how his skeptical belief in God (that's my phrase, not his) guided his actions, and he just wasn't taking the bait to talk about it.

 

Our conversation wasn't in enough depth that I have a real sense yet for his believe system. Given what I did hear, I'm more inclined to say he is a young man searching for answers right now than someone who has rejected the possibilty God exists. But way too little conversation has taken place for me to draw that conclusion without reservation.

 

John in KC - You're answer is interesting, because in reality, you are getting at what my real question was. Here's my understanding of the mechanics of the BSA. I think as a general statement, the Scoutmaster is in charge of Program. So this isn't specifically his responsiblity (and probably not within his authority). The BoR is an extension of the adult committee, and has no real standing to be making declarations of membership. Perhaps it should be the Committee Chair, but even then, I can't believe she can make determinations on her own. Should we contact the Charter Representative? Or, should we deal with someone in Scouting? If so, who? Should we start with our UC (who although I know I am not being KIND by saying so, is worthless as a UC)? Should I contact our DE? If I contact someone official, is the ball rolling too fast already to stop it if this is all just a bad misunderstanding? These are the questions I meant to ask by my original post, but did a poor job of verbalizing. I actually tried to find Dave Steele, but he no longer is in the last Scouting position I knew he had, and no one knew where to find him. But I was hoping to talk to a professional who was not associated with our Council or District to be able to ask these questions "off the record".

 

Again, thanks for your kindness, everyone.

 

Mark

[acco40]

First, lets get some "definitions" out of the way.

BSA DECLARATION OF RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLE

Excerpted: from Adult Registration Application B.S.A. No. 28-501K.

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely non-sectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of America's policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership.

 

What are certificates of leadership? Are they only for Scouters (adults)? I have no desire to research the "bylaws" of the BSA.

 

(From a position paper from the National Council) While not intending to define what constitutes belief in God, the Boy Scouts of America is proud to reaffirm the Scout Oath and its declaration of duty to God.

 

(From the Advancement Guidelines

The Boy Scouts of America has a definite position on religious principles. The following interpretative statement may help clarify this position. The Boy Scouts of America:

 

1) Does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion.

 

2) Does not require membership in a religious organization or association for enrollment in the movement but does prefer, and strongly encourages, membership and participation in the religious programs and activities of a church, synagogue, or other religious association.

 

3) Respects the convictions of those who exercise their constitutional freedom to practice religion as individuals without formal membership in organized religious organizations. In a few cases, there are those who, by conviction, do not feel it necessary to formally belong to an organized form of religion and seek to practice religion in accordance with their own personal convictions. Every effort should be made to counsel with the boy and his parents to determine the true story of the religious convictions and practices as related to advancement in Scouting. Religious organizations have commended the Boy Scouts of America for encouraging youth to participate in organized religious activities. However, these same organizations reject any form of compulsion to enforce conformity to establish religious practices.

 

4) If a boy says he is a member of a religious body, the standards by which he should be evaluated are those of that group. This is why an advancement committee usually requests a reference from his religious leader to indicate whether he has lived up to their expectations.

 

Throughout life, Scouts are associated with people of different faiths . Scouts believe in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs. Scouting believes in the right of all to worship God in their own way.

 

Now given all that, I don't see anything from the first post that would prevent the Scout from passing his board of review. He stated it was difficult for him to be reverent. He did not say he was not reverent.

 

I know of priests and ministers who have questioned the existence of God. In my own life, my oldest son had a tough time as a Cub Scout with this issue. He has been raised Catholic. Around the age of 9, his religious teacher died suddenly (aorta burst). She was relatively young (in her 30s). Her son was in his class. The incident made him question his faith. Why would a loving God take away such a fine young devout Catholic, mother of four, ...? Normal questions that we all have to struggle with. I took him to her visitation to pay his respects to her family (on a Friday evening) and was somewhat concerned about his response. He seemed fine until that Sunday when he refused to join us for mass. He told me it was all a crock and started to get angry and cry. So, should I have immediately pulled his BSA membership (being a unit leader)? Boy, what a compassionate response that would have been!

 

Part of my duty for being reverent is to be respectful of the beliefs of others.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Mark, excuse me a minute, but I need to settle some others hash:

FOR THOSE WHO WANT AN AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE:

http://www.scouting.org/awards/religious/awards/index.html

FROM THAT PAGE:

Buddhist

National Buddhist Committee on Scouting, 415 42nd Ave., San Mateo, CA 94403; 650-574-4527; fax: 408-756-3288; e-mail: Omitted(JKC)

AWARDS:

Cub Scout and Webelos Scout Metta

Boy Scout and Varsity Scout Sangha

Older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout Sangha

Adult Recognition Bodhi

PICTURES:

http://www.scouting.org/awards/religious/awards/05.html

 

LET'S GET OVER IT PEOPLE. THE NATIONAL COUNCIL RELIGIOUS RELATIONSHIPS COMMITTEE RECOGNIZES BUDDHISM.

Any committee member doing a detailed examination of Buddhist theology to an 11 year old Tenderfoot has his head where the sun does not shine. Now, maybe, a 17 year old Eagle Candidate should have a more informed view of where his faith will take him, but that's part of the reason for the religious emblems program within BSA: To help a young man jell his faith!

 

An interesting footnote: ALL of the older teen religious emblem awards, according to this webpage, are displaced by the Venturing Religious Life Bronze Award within the Advancement program. I'm going to have to investigate that!

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, Mark, back to you, and forgive the distraction, please...

 

One of the things I've learned, and had repeated to me in New Leader Essentials, in Woodbadge, in COR training, is a simple fact: Everyone in the District and the Council serves to support the Key 3 of a unit (IH/COR, CC, and Program Officer (CM, SM, Coach or Adv). Helping to raise up young men should be why every Scouter in the world gives time to the grand game. That to me IMPLIES being able to ask the tough questions and seek assistance.

 

You never mentioned who your Chartered Partner is: If a church, I'd ask them for some assistance, particularly from the youth pastor, if there be one. If your UC is a Zero, seek out one of his peers at Roundtable. If necessary, seek out the District Commissioner. There's a time and a place for folks to be pedantic sons of guns. Working directly with a youth who is trying to set his moral compass for life isn't one of them. This needs loyalty, friendship, courteousness and kindness (gee, sound familiar?).

 

As to the particulars of last Tuesday: May I recommend that a different night from the general meeting, and perhaps a different site? The young man in question deserves full attention, and further, deserves an environment free from distraction.

 

It's never easy on an internet bulletin board to share the full circumstances of an issue, but Mark, I have to say you're doing about as good a job as can be done.

 

I hope my meanderings help.

 

YIS

 

PS: For those who may think I am a Buddhist apologist, I am not. I am Christian by faith (He is Risen, Indeed!), and Missouri Synod Lutheran by practice.

[Fuzzy Bear]

acco40,

 

Your son was correct in questioning the existence of a God that allows good people to die. He is expressing a natural outpouring of grief for the senseless poverty of this life. He may also be recognizing the fact that bad people suffer the same fate as well as all of mankind. It is depressing to know that the world that we love will inevitably end. Our homes, our schools, our Troops, all that is real will crumble into history. Monuments will be erected to remember the brave and stories will be written of their exploits and all of that will fall away as well. The stars will eventually burn out and the sun will shrink and the earth will be swallowed up and crushed into fine dust.

 

It is a hard question to resolve and those that have pondered it generally refer to it as the mystery of life. It is a mystery that has remained with us for centuries. The same mystery that he is thinking through is the same that others have thought about during each age. There are those that have ignored the questions and have disallowed the inadequacy of the standard answers but for many that is dishonest and insufficient.

 

When a person dies, part of all of us dies. When all that we know dies, then all that is left us is hope that our love is large enough to transcend the darkness that appears on the horizon. I hope for justice. I long for a home. I fear nothingness.

 

I don't question God as much as I question a policy that falls far short of the intended mark. fb

 

[Eagle-Ranger]

As I read through this thread, I guess I have one over-bearing concern;

 

What is the purpose of the Boy Scouts of America? As an Eagle Scout it was my understanding (coming up in the 80's) that the purpose was to teach us about the outdoors, our environment, how to be Leader's, and most importantly how to be good citizen's of the world. I know many people who are of different walks of life, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Catholic, and yes Buddhism, (of which I am a 20 year practitioner). They are all great people, honorable, being of kind nature to their environment, and those who inhabit this planet with them. Who are we to just their "Worthiness" on the basis of whether or not they carry your exact belief?

 

Scouting is to raise Leader's, Citizen's, and to teach acceptance and tolerance. By kicking kids out of troops what do the Scout's teach these boys (Ahem, Young Men) about society?

 

The questions yu should ask, is does this Young Man behave with Honor, did he Earn the rank, and most importantly, how does he treat humanity and the environment? Please don't teach him to judge.... He already knows now what it feels like to Be Judged.....

 

 

[mmhardy]

This introspective young man is studying Theology (Theo-" is "God" in Greek and "-logy" is study) Its natural for us humans to question our place in the universe. Its healthy and in my mind all mature individuals question their belief system at some points in their lives.

 

In this case its not the job of the BSA to dismiss this young man from the program. Rather I would prefer that he be allowed to continue so long has he adheres to the Scout Oath and Law. It will be worth reminding him what the Oath and Law contain and that it is an affirmation of a belief system. As an adult leader it would also be worth noting that professing to be an agnostic is inconsistent with the Scout Oath and Law. Thus he is not being Trustworthy with himself to affirm a duty to God yet question His existence.

 

Furthermore ask this young man if he wants to be associated in an organization who finds fault in his belief. Point out that to stay on would be in essence a lie. Harsh yes but honest.

 

Its far better for a BSA member to Demit on his own accord rather then dismissed.