I need Guidance!

[Lisabob]

I'm in agreement with both Hunt and Calico on this. We don't need to engage in a witch hunt within scouting. But if you feel that the boy has very clearly indicated a (lack of) belief that very clearly flies in the face of membership requirements then you are within your rights to ask him to leave. Personally though, I'd take Hunt's approach. I'd also make very sure that the boy understands that he may be pressed for a definitive stance (do you believe in something?) at his EBoR, should he choose to place himself in that position, and that a negative answer could lead to his Eagle application being declined. Then offer him an open ear, or another avenue (maybe the open ears of some religious leaders or other trusted ASMs if you're not comfortable yourself with this), for conversation any time he wants to continue to explore this topic.

 

And depending on how likely you think this issue is to come up at an EBoR, then if/when that EBoR is scheduled, maybe I'd consider ensuring that the advancement chair diligently reviews the requirements (ie, what is and is not acceptable to ask - noting that BSA doesn't require a particular sort of belief, nor do they require proof or absolute knowledge of one's beliefs) with the EBoR participants prior to convening the board.

 

Lisa'bob

[Eagledad]

>>As a seventeen year old, presumably lookin' to apply for the organization's highest award within the year, it's worth askin' the boy to think about whether he can do that honestly.

[OldGreyEagle]

I am a little confused, but that is natural. When an adult fills out the Adult Application he implies ( I think thats the right word) that he will follow the BSA program I do believe this has been discussed. So now at a Board of Review, one of the crowning jewels of the Adult Association method of the BSA program and a scout announces quite convincinly that he has no proof God exists and we say that its not the BOR's job to bother doing anything about it? It appears the BOR asked several questions and came away with the impression the boy does not beleive in God. Now, either he can be a member of the BSA by following the membership requirements or he cant. The decision doesnt and shouldnt be made hastily, but it has to be made if the troop is to follow the program. What is the mission of the BSA? How does glossing over a basic requirement of membership by adults fit in there? We constantly say Boy Scouts is a good program because it build charactor and we are there for the boys and then when a bump appears in the road we pull over and avoid it? So, what do you do when the other boys of the troop talk about how Ulysses (not his real name, I hope)told those old geezers off at the BOR about how God doesnt exist and they did nothing about it? How do you then represent reverence to them as part of the scout law when you allow the boy to remain and possibly advance in the troop? It is natural for youth to test boundaries and push them, it is the responsibility of the adults to assure that the boundaries established by the BSA are followed. The BSA requires a belief system/Religion/Something. If after a serious discussion with the youth, and maybe with parents, clergy, anyone who can help the boy does not acknowledge the existence of a higher power then the end result is clear. We talk about teaching a boy about consequences, why is this different? We talk about God in the Oath, how do we dismiss it? It may not be an adults task to seek out those who dont qualify for membership, but when one steps up waving his hand screaming here I am, it can't be ignored

[nldscout]

I am with OGE, time to stop mamby pambying around. He made the statement, knows what he said and now must suffer the results. Time to revoke his membership, NOW, not later.

[scoutldr]

Well put, OGE. I was wondering the same things from the start of this thread. BSA says "atheists and agnostics cannot be members." Scout says "I'm an agnostic". The way ahead is clear. The troop committee should meet with the scout and his family (with the COR present) and clearly explain the DRP and BSA membership requirements. Then I would give them until recharter time (presumably within the next couple of months?) to let you know their decision. This is their decision, not the committee's. While we as scouters may not necessarily agree with BSA policy, we have agreed to deliver the program as it is written.

[mk9750]

Folks,

 

Thanks so much for your help! Most of the answers are the same considerations I had before I asked the question to you.

 

In reading your suggestions, and mulling it over myself, I think that my course of action will be as follows:

 

SM, Scout, and the three of us who sat on the BoR will get together. The Scout has asked that we not include his parents yet, as he wants to determine how he deals with this with his parents.

 

I would like to have us ask some or all of the following questions:

 

1) Tell us what you perceive being agnostic means to you.

 

2) We assume you are not religious. Are you spiritual? In what ways?

 

3) Do you believe in any higher authority at all?

 

4) Despite the fact you find no proof that the God most people recognize exists, do you recognize some other spiritual being (or beings)?

 

5) As a trustworthy Scout, which you have already demonstrated you are, if you understood the BSA's position as not extending membership to persons who do not believe in whatever concept of God they cam imagine, would you still desire to remain a member of the BSA?

 

6) If agnostic to you means that there is no proof God exists, are you searching for proof?

 

7) If not, are you attempting to disprove God's existence?

 

"Ullyses" is really a great kid. He's come a long way from the time he joined the Troop. He certainly is no "model" of a Scout. But this is one of those kids that I really, REALLY believe Scouting is perfect for. I always use the comment that a couple of our former Scouts, now at West Point, and at Penn State in the Engineering Pprogram, and a Dept. of Natural Resources officer in Clolorado, and a number of other guys in our Troop, would have been succesful with or without Scouting. But this guy has grown so much in the program. He literally was a smart mouthed, lazy kid who worked harder at avoiding work than if he just did what he was responsible for. Now, although he may never be the poster boy for what a Scout is, he takes responsiblities seriously. He can be counted on to be there. He's really very patient with the younger Scouts. This program has done him A WORLD of good. Yes, I don't want to see him leave.

 

On the other hand, if a member is intelligent enough to understand the requirements and decides he can no longer be bound by them, do I not have a responsiblity to make it an issue? As OGE says, I took an Oath, too. And the Oath I took is important to me.

 

To sum, I want to give this Scout the opportunity to make his position clear. If that position is a firm "there is no God until you prove to me there is", then I think once I explain to him the expectations of the BSA, he may leave on his own. If not, at that point, I think I need to call Council.

 

Thanks again, all. There are a large number of you I have missed corresponding with. Please feel free to contact me directly if anyone just wants to talk.

 

Mark

[Gonzo1]

mk,

 

I stick withmy earlier comments and agree with OGE and nldscout.

 

Perhaps the BOR could contionally pass the young man pending a meeting with the minister (is church is Chartered Organization).

 

Allow enough time in the meeting to be certain he knows what he is saying. Then yo might ask the minister to meet with the BOR and/or the parents. You might include the minister in an additional BOR and future boards.

 

The rule is the rule.

 

One ting is certain, when asking for guidance and you ask 20 scouters, you'll probably get 15 opinions.

 

All the best,

G

 

[Aquila calva]

The young man probably hasnt had a whole lot of opportunity to study world religions. He may not really understand the extent of his choices. Perhaps one place to start could be here:

 

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/

 

He could come to his next meeting with you and explain how he has taken up an in depth study of Buddhism and is now on a journey seeking truth.

 

He could say his God is Truthfulness. Or perhaps (to get closer to the Christian texts)...his God is Love.

 

He could say "I believe in the higher power of truthfulness and love."

 

A line from the page listed above...

 

"May I be a lamp for those who seek light, a bed for those who seek rest, and may I be a servant for all beings who desire a servant."

 

[Eamonn]

Hi mk9750

Please know that you are missed -At least by one displaced English / Irish Fellow.

Back in 2003 two brothers signed up for the Jamboree. I was overjoyed as a few years earlier I had received a call from their Mother saying that they were unhappy with the Pack they were in and I had advised her to try several other local Packs.

I was sad when one brother changed his mind and when I asked what had happened his brother said that he quit Scouting so he could spend more time at church. I talked with Mom and she confirmed this.

The other Lad went to the Jambo, has a really good time and seemed to be doing well. I really didn't have a lot of dealings with him as he was a Boy Scout and I was District Chair. Still I liked to keep an eye out for all the Scouts that I knew. He became SPL of his Troop, active in the OA and a Staff member of the JLTC.

You can imagine how disappointed I was when I heard that he had quit Scouting.

When we started the Ship I gave him a call. We talked for a while and he said that he was really interested in joining Sea Scouts, but there was a problem.

It seems that who ever was in charge of the JLTC course had gone over the Oath and Law. TJ (the Scout) had said that he didn't believe in God. The JLTC Scoutmaster it seems had interpreted Duty to God as being a Christian. When TJ stated that he wasn't a Christian he was no longer welcome to serve on the staff.

TJ, is 16 years old a very bright Lad, who writes really good poetry and essays.

I met with him and explained that to be a Scout he had to believe in some form of higher power. He said that he didn't like church and church services. I explained that he didn't have to. I went on to say that there are a lot of different religions and beliefs out there and he needed to talk with his parents about this. I explained that I didn't know enough about other religions or beliefs to be of much help.

As we talked he said that the JLTC Scoutmaster had informed them that the BSA only recognizes the religions where there is a Religious Award listed!! I said that this wasn't the case.

I remembered that TJ and a group of other Scouts who had been at the Jambo had opted to attend the Buddhist services.

We left it with me saying that it was all well and good if he didn't know if there was a religion out there that he might want to join.

That he did believe that there was someting out there that might be called a God, he was going to talk to his parents (He did and I know because I called his Mom -She is now a Ship's Mate.) I noticed that on one long trip he was reading a book about Wiccans.

I don't claim to understand or know all the answers.

I do think that TJ is doing his best to do his duty to God, but right now he is having a hard time knowing what name to call him by.

Eamonn.

 

[evmori]

From what I read, this Scout doesn't deny the existence of God. He is finding it hard to believe there is a God. Now we need to remember he did recite the Oath without question and I am assuming (I hate doing that) recited the Oath correctly & completely. But, after he revealed his concerns, he was never asked how he does his duty to God.

 

Remember, the DRP doesn't state a Scout must not be wavering in his belief, just that he does.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear]

Belief in God is important but if belief in God becomes the litmus test for being a Scout, then all of the other precepts become meaningless. There are those that would love to single out the one ideal and forget the rest but Scouting presents us with a balance of ideals. If a Scout fails in any one area, then by default he must be gaining in other areas. If one area lags, then it is only time that the one lost will be found out. Scouting is a process that I believe brings an individual into focus and allows a person to become well rounded. I doubt that any Scout will ever be a total reflection of all of the ideals but they will have struggled with all while they remain in the program.

 

This idea is not original. It is a religious idea. It comes from God.

 

fb

 

[Gonzo1]

Fuzzy Bear,

you said .....if belief in God becomes the litmus test for being a Scout, then all of the other precepts become meaningless

 

I respectfully disagree. Belief in God is fundamental to BSA membership. A scout agrees to live by the Scout Oath and Law to join BSA. How can he do his duty or be reverent if he doesn't believe.

 

I suggest the BOR meet with the lad and a minister and determine his belief system. He doesn't have to be a member of any particular religion or church, he must however believe.

 

Gonzo

[Aquila calva]

mk9750

In reading some of these posts again, follow Hunts advice. His advice coincides with the message being offered by the current President of the Boy Scouts, Rick Cronk.

 

When people use the word "membership" you think of kids, and Scouting asking kids if they believe in God. ... We don't ask those questions.

 

Rick Cronk, President of the Boy Scouts of America

Published May 23, 2006, USAToday

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-05-23-cronk-interview_x.htm

 

The following is from an interview with Rick Cronk published in USNews last June.

 

Turning to God in the scout oath, does one have to believe in a Christian God to be a Boy Scout?

 

There must be hundreds of Gods out there. God in the oath refers to a supreme being of some sort it's a moral or ethical or spiritual orientation. We don't care if it's Mohammad or Buddha or a rock in Japan. We ask the kids to take the Scout oath and what they do on their own time is up to them.

 

Mr. Cronks last sentence above is the best advice.

 

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060613/13scouts_3.htm

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

I think that mk9750 is on the right track when he proposes to further discuss spirituality and reverence with the scout. The questions he proposes are excellent ones.

 

OGE, Gonzo, nld, and others are wrong (IMO) when they say that belief in God is essential to BSA membership. Buddhists do NOT believe in a god, a supreme being, or a higher power. Yet they are allowed full membership by BSA national without blinking. The DRP is meaningless when it comes to Buddhists. Would you have us revoke their membership because they do not believe in God?

[mk9750]

Folks,

 

Thanks again for your insightful suggestions. I also want to commend everyone for returning back to the question. Even Merlyn, with whom I disagree almost 100%, was respectful enough to discontinue his fight in this thread when I requested. Thank you!

 

It just now struck me that I'm going to have to deal with at least portions of this issue again. One of our new Scouts is Budhist. Being completely and shamefully ignorant about Budhism, it never occurred to me that they don't worship a god.

 

He is scheduled for a BoR for Tenderfoot next week. For this rank, questions would normally center on his understanding of the Points of the Oath and Law, and almost not at all on his adherence. But at some point, how he demonstrates Duty to God and being Reverent will come up.

 

I pray that my God helps me with the wisdom I need to serve these two young men. I'll need it.

 

Thanks!

 

Mark

 

P.S. - I just proof read my post, and realized the comment about Merlyn seems like a jab. I tried to figure out how to reword it, and couldn't without changing the meaning of it. The comment was meant as a compliment, not a snide remark. I hope you will recieve it as such.

mk