I need Guidance!

[OldGreyEagle]

Do a search on the forum for Darrell Lambert, he was an Atheist who had his BSA membership revoked because he was an Atheist, in one thread a BSA spokesman (I think it was a BSA spkesman said)

 

"We give great latitude to our members as adult leaders as to what they profess as belief," said Farmer. "It can be through a church or religion or greatly unstructured. Mother Nature would be acceptable."

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=19496#id_19803

 

Ask the boy if he beleives in a higher power than himself, if he does, he may be a scout, if he doesnt, he cant.

[fotoscout]

Seems to me that this boy is trying to get a rise out of the system, and you're not too quick to play his game........

 

Sounds like this is good kid and you, and your fellow leaders don't want to do anything bad to him. I would consult the committee, and have the issue moved to council. Let the boy play his game with some adults that he is less comfortable with.

 

He can dig his own grave, and you won't have to be a part of it.

[SR540Beaver]

Merlyn: "...not all atheists would say that they are 100% certain that no gods exist."

 

Then they would be incorrectly identifying themselves as atheists. An atheist denies the existence of a God.

 

mk9750,

 

Even though the boy said that the hardest law for him to follow is "reverence", he did not say he does not follow it at all. Is he respectful of the beliefs of others? Does he interupt or ignore religious observances such as saying grace before a meal? The law of reverence goes beyond personal belief in scouting to include how we treat the belief of others.

 

Many kids want to spend every penny they get their hands on. In a BOR he might say that he finds Thrifty the hardest law to follow because he loves to spend money. OK. He has an area of the law he needs to improve on. Same for reverent.

 

Even though he is 17 and too smart for his own good, I'd hate to think that I still operate on my own personal view of the world at 17. Lots of things have changed with experience and age. I'm more concerned with the 45 year old adult who has decided that no God exists and wants to be a Scout leader than I am a 17 year old boy who is in the early to mid stages of trying to sort the world out.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SR540Beaver, an atheist is someone who isn't a theist. Using your definition, a Christian is an atheist because they deny the existence of a god - for example, Zeus. If you would like to ask atheists what THEY mean by the word "atheist", you can ask plenty in alt.atheism, at atheists.org, or infidels.org. If you ask someone "what gods do you believe exist?" and they answer "None", I'd say they're an atheist; would you?

[evmori]

Man, Merlyn, you musta majored in Spin in college cause you can twist anything around to fit your need!

 

Atheist - a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Yes Ed, read your own definition, and realize that disbelieve = not believe. An atheist is a person who does not believe in gods.

 

Plus, of course, the standard a- prefix means "not". asymmetrical = not symmetrical, atheist = not theist.

 

A theist believes in (at least one) god; an atheist is someone who is not a theist.

[Trevorum]

Our troop had a Scout precisely like this fellow. Very high IQ, always questioning. Clearly smarter than most (maybe all) of the adults. Drove us crazy.

 

In our council, all advancement issues up to and including Life rank are handled solely by the unit. District and Council decline to get involved. If your situation had happened in our unit, I suspect that the candidate would have be given the benefit of the doubt for Life rank. Many teen-agers feel adrift and your scout may be on a spiritual search that is not yet resolved one way or another. I would also counsel him that his Eagle BoR will have a representative from District or Council who might not be so understanding of the finer distinctions of his philosophy. Dan's advice is good: counsel the boy to investigate Buddhism, UU, or Pantheism. God is too big to fit inside one religion.

 

Our Scout? He's now an Eagle. I suspect he may still be agnostic, but he learned how to talk about the numinous without being confrontational. His spiritual journey is just starting.

[packsaddle]

Gern, if your tongue is still firmly planted in your cheek, I want you to chomp down, hard.

I would ask him if he believes in nature and then sign on the line.

Otherwise, which one of you will decide to kick him out?

Who will tell him?

Who will tell his parents?

Will you feel like you did the right thing?

How will kicking him out benefit him or the troop?

How will it benefit BSA?

I sincerely would like to know the answers to these questions.

[SR540Beaver]

Merlyn,

 

Sorry buddy....I'm one of the few aroud here who give you the benefit of the doubt, but I ain't playing your little game today.

 

Besides, mk9750 asked us to discuss his issue, not to argue the bur under your particular saddle that does not address his problem. I'll respect that from this point on and would ask that you do to.

[Beavah]

Yah, I think yeh always make a BOR advancement decision based on the "whole package", eh?

 

I think it's fair for a BOR or the SM to then continue the conversation with the boy by sharin' their understanding of da BSA's view of the Oath and Law. As a seventeen year old, presumably lookin' to apply for the organization's highest award within the year, it's worth askin' the boy to think about whether he can do that honestly. No answer required right away. Just somethin' to get him thinkin'. I think kids who are applyin' for Eagle should choose whether they can be honest about that. I've never known a boy not to be.

 

As far as membership goes, dat's the troop or crew's call. I don't like kickin' kids out who are honest pilgrims, eh? Even the ones who get argumentative are still searchin'. But if the boy is disruptive to their mission by arguin' with the adults and other kids to advance an atheist agenda, or goes and writes a letter to the newspaper as "an unbelievin' Boy Scout", then that becomes the CO's or the Council's call.

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well SR540Beaver, if the BSA says that "atheists" can't be members, the proper definition of "atheist" would seem to be important.

 

Of course, in this case, it's the BSA's definition of "atheist", which could be complete nonsense.

 

It does appear that the BSA doesn't have very clear rules on what it considers a vitally important membership requirement.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The implication of a frozen drop of water expanding has more to do with the size of the cup holding the ice than with any explanation about God, unless there is some type of metaphor. It is a principle that even engineers can appreciate. I would imagine that the chemical engineer that told that one had a warm moist tear in both eyes.

 

Try proving the existence of mankind using the General Theory of Relativity. It may be that people are more of an illusion than someone's ideas about God. If the young man is confused and has found a great mystery about God, then he may be standing in a long line with many others waiting for a rational answer concerning God, mankind and the meaning of life.

 

Being that we always seem to have experts on most any subject, lets challenge each other to explain the existence of God in rational terms without falling on the sword of blind faith. If we find it the least bit difficult, then it may be that giving a break to a young man that is just beginning to ask the difficult questions, would be a consideration. Being smart and young has it disadvantages but if he were to struggle through to find an answer with great merit, we may find a worthy Scout and future leader that has something to share. fb

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

mk -

 

My opinion is that our opinions on this issue aren't important. It is you and your fellow leaders opinion that is important. Do you folks want this lad to remain in Scouts or do you want to kick him out? If you want to keep him in, keep him in - some folks here have provided good reasoning to support that decision. If you want to kick him out, then you've found the excuse to do so - other folks here have provided good reasoning to support that decision. But it's ultimately your call. You can "kick it up to council" to let them make a decision but even trying to pass the buck is making a decision - and your decision is ultimately responsible for what comes next.

 

Whether you agree or disagree with BSA policy doesn't matter at this point - and my sense is you folks haven't figured out if you really agree or disagree with it. If you all fully agreed with the policy, we wouldn't be having this discussion, you would have already shown the lad the door. That you haven't done so yet tells me that while you might agree, in principle, to the policy, this is a non-hypothetical situation with a real person that you folks know, and must like and respect, and are wondering if, in fact, the policy makes any sense at all. What matters at this point is what decision you are going to take - the policy is only the tool to hide behind.

 

There must be other factors driving the question that we aren't aware of - I can think of several situations that might give me pause before I was to toss out a boy for declaring he was an agnostic For instance: father (or mother, or other relative) the head of the Chartered Organization - tossing the boy out could mean the potential loss of the chartered organization too. Boys parents heavily involved as leaders - potential loss of leaders that may not be easily replaced. Boy very popular with other boys (and their parents) in the troop - a true leader - one that other boys follow willingly - potential loss of signficant number of Scouts who decide tossing the lad out was just stupid and unfair.

 

Folks have given you both sides of the coin - the black-and-white letter of the law and the shades of gray interpretation of the law. It's really up to you to decide which to follow. If you let tell him to leave, you can try to take comfort in knowing that you followed the letter of the law. If you let him stay, you can try to take comfort in the various shades of gray interpretations. It's up to you to decide what will make you most comfortable, and what you'll be able to live with - because it is you that needs to live with the decision, and it's consequences.

 

CalicoPenn

[Gonzo1]

mk9750,

I'll stick to your post.

About 10 years ago when I was SM, we had a second or first class scout who one night decided he wasn't say the Pledge of Allegiance or the Scout Oath anymore. When I called him over to me and the CC, I asked him why he didn't salute and recite. He said "I don't believe in no God, I ain't saying that crap no more" I told him to bring one of his parents the next week and the CC and I discussed it with the parent. I reminded the parent that joining requirements in the book stated that the scout understand agrees to live by the Scout Oath and Law. The parent told us that he didn't know what has gotten into his son, but that he had been this way for a little while. With a heavy heart, I asked the parent and scout to leave. They left and that was it.

 

It seems in your situation, you may wish to consult with the scout, his parent(s) and the members of the BOR.

 

Good Luck.

[Hunt]

Here's my advice: drop the subject. The boy said that it's difficult to be reverent to a God you have no proof exists. He did not say "I do not believe in God," which is about the only clearly disqualifying statement. Why is it your job to pin him down? He knows what the Law and Oath say--leave it to his own conscience. If his actions are those of a boy who lives the Oath and Law in his daily life, approve him for advancement.

He may hit a wall when he goes for an Eagle Board, or he may say something different. In any case, I see nothing in the duties of volunteer scout leaders that obligates them to track down non-believers and kick them out. So don't.