I need Guidance!

[Trevorum]

John,

 

I dont think anyone is disputing the fact that BSA recognizes Buddhism. No one wants to change that.

 

The point being made is that many Buddhists are also atheists, and BSA doesnt seem to mind that in the least, knowing that the Buddhist ethical system can lead them "to be the best kind of citizens". It would be nice if BSA were to extend that courtesy to others.

 

[BadenP]

I am glad to see that the majority of the scouters approach this issue with some forethought and understanding instead of a shoot first and ask questions later mentality. This is indeed a multi layer problem that as been blown out of proportion by some of the posters here. Experts have completed studies which show young people age 15-21 have doubts about God, what is the purpose of religion, how does it apply to their lives or is it even relevant. After working with teenagers for fifteen years and as an ordained minister I can tell you first hand that this is a phase almost all youth go through. As they gain more life experiences they will begin to find relevancy of what they were taught and format their belief system. I think a meeting with his minister is a good idea, as long as it is not done in an accusatory manner, but in a loving and positive way.

 

To Gern, Gonzo, nld all I can say to you is that Jesus went out to find his lost sheep not drive it out of the flock. I suggest you try to use love and understanding, since you claim to be Christians, instead of being so judgmental and closed minded.

[Gonzo1]

BadenP

Please check my other posts in this thread. I never said to kick him out. I said that he may not qualify for memberhsip. This might not be an issue if he weren't 17 and close to Eagle. The Scout said that he is agnostic, not the BOR. I suggested another meeting with the BOR and a minister. If he doesn't believe (now all you buddhists, sit this one out, we've been over it), he can't be in BSA, PERIOD. It's not my rule, it's BSA's rule. He must decide and declare if he believes in God. Personally, I could care less (as it pertains to scouting) which God he believes in. It cold be a "higher power", "Love", "Light", something. Here's my take on the "Big Bang Theory": God said it and BANG!!! It happened.

 

I've also said that no one should try to pigeon hole this lad into a religion so he can become an Eagle Scout.

 

You can't put a square peg into a round hole.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Trevorum writes:

The point being made is that many Buddhists are also atheists, and BSA doesnt seem to mind that in the least, knowing that the Buddhist ethical system can lead them "to be the best kind of citizens".

 

I disagree; I think most in the BSA are simply ignorant, and don't realize that Buddhists can be atheists. The DRP as written now doesn't allow for atheists Buddhists to be "the best kind of citizens."

[packsaddle]

Merlyn, I think your explanation is too simple. This issue has been around long enough that those at the top in BSA would have to work hard to intentionally be that ignorant. I think it is more likely that they are in denial, unable to find a way out of the dilemma they've created with the policy. Perhaps there is another alternative.

[Aquila calva]

"now all you buddhists, sit this one out, we've been over it"

 

That would be Lotus position, I presume.

 

I am a Roman Catholic just about to go to sleep, praying to the BVM that mk9750 will now drop the inquisition of this scout. Life is too short! It sounds like the real "problem" is with the scout's parents. Give the scout a break, for heaven's sake!

 

"Hail Mary, full of grace..."

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Packsaddle, I don't know if it's possible to overestimate the sheer ignorance of whoever makes decisions in the BSA. They went to court to kick out atheists even as public schools were their largest chartering partner, and apparently didn't see a problem. They insist they are "absolutely nonsectarian" regarding religion, yet the long form of the DRP has "The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship", which clearly spells out some attributes that this god must have, even though not all religions would agree with this. And then they backtrack on the DRP, by saying a scout's god can be a rock or a tree or a stream (I guess it's OK as long as that rock is also the ruling and leading power in the universe). About the only thing that's clear is that these rules were made by a committee that flunked at camels.

[mmhardy]

 

To digress for a moment.

 

Has anyone ever noted on this forum how much in lockstep Scouting is with Freemasony?

 

Ranks = Degrees

 

The 3 steps in OA Membership = Initial 3 Degrees toward Blue Lodge

 

And belief in an almightly supreme being. etc.etc.

 

As the guy in Laugh In used to say...very interesting.

 

 

[Trevorum]

mm - ahhh, but they discontinued the Masonry MB (a red herring?)

 

Brian, I agree with you that this muddle must have been achieved by committee. But I also agree with pack that, individually, the members of those committees are not ignorant of Buddhism; they just can not see a way out of the dilemma.

 

As someone (Gern?) said on another thread, Buddhism is the "elephant in the tent". The more liberal members (Jews, Catholics, etc.) of the Committee (and here I'm not talking about the Religious Relationships subcommittee, but some top-secret policy committee made up solely of career professionals) are no doubt fully accepting of Buddhism as a historically validated ethical system, regardless of its theology. I suspect the more conservative members (Mormons, Baptists, etc.) would prefer not to have any Buddhists in BSA because they realize they are in fact atheists, but can not expel them now after 85 years of faithful membership.

 

And so everyone goes along uneasily, knowing that (most) Buddhists are atheists, but not willing to say anything about the emperor's clothes. As I said before, I suspect that if the issue were raised in a high profile case, BSA would be backed into a corner wherby it would have to revise and clarify the DRP to include reverent non-theists. hmmm... Do you know any Buddhist Eagle candidates with the last name of Scopes?

[packsaddle]

Trev, I agree completely. However, I would not wish this on a Buddhist boy. Rather, if the issue does eventually come to the surface, in my mind it would be better to put the BSA inquisition to a Buddhist adult leader rather than to a youth.

[GernBlansten]

Rosa Parks, John Scopes, both of these people were instrumental in changing attitudes in society. The other interesting similarity was both were plants, chosen to defy the status quo. Rosa Parks was a civil rights worker sent to ride that particular bus. John Scopes was recruited to violate the policy of not teaching evolution in that particular school.

Perhaps BSA needs to go through the same process. Identify a non-thiest leader and expel him, publically. Have him challenge the BSA by pointing out the DRP is flawed in relationship to Buddhists. If Buddhists are accepted, all non-theists should be, eh? Of course we will need a Council willing to go the distance and a unit willing to give up one of their leaders. Sometimes you got to break the rule to fix it.

[stlscouter]

Meanwhile back to the original question...

The conumdrum should not exist because :

1. The question should have been resolved at any of the Scoutmaster conferences beginning with tenderfoot, second class, etc and the conference before the scout ever contacted the BOR for Eagle.

2. Upon recitation of the Scout oath the Scout was "on his honor..."

3. The questions to thew Scout should have been framed in the words "How do you show a Scout is Trustworthy...Reverent?"

 

Now, how to retify the situation. Since it is difficult to put a cat back into a burlap sack, just reconvene the BOR after the Scout has had a Scoutmaster conference and begin again.

 

While questions may linger the BOR should not have to deal with this as it has been solved at the troop level.

 

The BOR is not there to retest a Scout on any previous rank requirements.

[Hunt]

To also go back to the boy who is the subject of this thread: He has now said that he "leans toward there being a God because no one has disproved it to me" It seems to me that this can be the end of the inquiry. Since BSA does not "define what constitutes belief in God," this statement surely qualifies, and the DRP is satisfied. This boy does not deny the existence of God.

[mk9750]

Well, the results are in, and I think you'll find them interesting.

 

After trying to get together during last week's meeting failed, I asked the Scout to write out a short description of his belief system. As I've mentioned before, this is one of those guys who is a bit too smart for his own good, and it showed in his writing. He created a three page dessertation on comparative religions, got into the debates of free will and natural law, and discussed absolutism versus relativism. But in the end, he really didn't discuss his believe system.

 

We got together last night in the group I had hoped (SM, three BoR members, and the Scout - still no parents involved). I asked him to define what he means when he calls himself an agnostic. His answer, although shrouded again in "intellectualeeze", led all of the adults to understand that he was unsure that God exists because he can't accept the normal, common definition and vision of God - Flowing robes, long gray beard, father of Jesus, directing each of us as if we were on puppet strings (most of these were phrases he used later on). Rather, he accepted that "something" started the "big bang". He acknowledges that there must be some entity that makes people desire to do good and makes most feel bad when they do bad, and he even said that the "Golden Rule", which is what he tries to live by, seems remarkably like what most religions base their teachings on.

 

At that point, we asked the direct question - "Do you believe in a god - any god - with or without a capital "G"? His answer was a very convincing "probably, I do". I know that probably sounds wishy washy in print, but as I've said before, I have no reason to question this boys integrity. We asked a few more questions to make sure his answers stayed consistent, which they did.

 

We then went to to subject of how he lives up to being Reverent. He admitted he has no idea how to even do this with his current believe system. This led to a conversation based to some degree on one of the posts from this thread. I made the comment, and all the adults agreed, that had this young man said he struggled to be Courteous or Brave, the result would have been a discussion to help him find ways in which he can improve, and suggesting that he work to do so between now and his next BoR. We, including the Scout, agreed that he would make that a top goal between now and his Eagle BoR. the SM suggested strongly that he read Carl Sagen's book "Contact", which the Scout wrote down and seemed enthusiastic to tackle.

 

Can we be 100% certain he didn't do a great snow job on us? No. But I am as convinced that I can be that this process both helped a boy define his belief system more clearly than it had, while giving him a path to pursue and attempt to clarify things even more. Could we have been snowed? Yes. But I'd rather believe we did what Scouting requires us as mentors to do - Help a boy grow to become a man, sometimes in baby steps, and sometimes in giant leaps. Personally, I am proud of the way we handled things, and very comfortable with the results. I have many of you to thank for guiding me through this. Although the process was never going to be exactly as any one of you suggested, your input added to our local understanding of the boy and all of his environment and created a very positive outcome. Thank you.

 

Mark

[Gonzo1]

Congratulations to all of you!