I need Guidance!

[mk9750]

Hello forum!

 

As I've mentioned before, I've cut back significantly on my activity here, as I feel I'm not as valuable a resource as I always thought I was. However, I do need your help. Allow me to describe a conversation I had in a Board of Review for Life Scout last night. The Boy is 17 years old. Within the Troop, we have described him at times as being one of those guys who might be too smart for his own good, if that helps you get a handle on the type of young man involved:

 

I asked the candidate to repeat the Scout Oath and Law to start the Review, which he did. When he finished and sat down, I asked him which of the 12 points of the Law he found easiest to uphold, and he answered Trustworthy, and he explained that over the years since he became a Scout, he has come to appreciate the value in being honest with himself and with others.

 

I then asked which point is the most difficult to follow, and he answered "Reverent, because, being an agnostic, it's very difficult to be reverent to a God you have no proof exists".

 

The entire three member board followed this line for quite some time trying to get a handle on the Scout's belief system, and trying to allow him the opportunity to reformat his answer. The Scout was cognizant of what we were attempting to do, and in the end, stated that he was firm in his position that he is an agnostic.

 

Please let me know how you would handle this. I have read the Declaration of Religious Principles. My take on this situation is that I am 80% - 90% sure that this young man does not qualify to remain a member. I also believe that he understand his situation well, and has a clear understanding of what it means to be and agnostic, and what that may mean for his standing in the BSA. Were this a 13 year old boy, I suspect I may just blow this off as a kid who really didn't understand what he was saying, and just picked up a buzz word. That's not this guy.

 

All comments are welcome!

 

Thanks!

 

Mark

 

[SR540Beaver]

An agnostic and an atheist are apples and oranges. I've been an evangelical Christian for the last 42 years of my 49. My degree is in religion from a Southern Baptist University. There have been times where I have questioned the existence of God. It is a normal part of being human. This boy has not declared that there is no God, just that he does not see proof that God exists and therefore finds the law of reverence the most difficult to keep. I do call that being trustworthy.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic

 

agnostic:

1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

 

Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning without, not, as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, knowledge, which was used by early Christian writers to mean higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as Gnostics a group of his fellow intellectualsists, as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a man without a rag of a label to cover himself with, Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

 

atheist:

a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The official BSA legal website says that atheists and agnostics can't be members.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[mtm25653]

Our troop would use this as an opportunity for growth.

 

We have a 17 yo Life scout who had similar beliefs for the last few years. The SM took the opportunity to talk with him at SM conferences about his beliefs. The SM also looks at scouting to some extent as a ministry, letting boys see good role models of religious belief (FYI, our troop has Protestant, Catholic, Jewish and Moslems boys and leaders.) Over time, something clicked - I haven't talk with him myself, but he is now working on his Eagle project, something the SM would not have allowed if he still did not have a belief in God.

[scoutingagain]

MK,

 

Good question. The good news is this boy is 17 and has some time to find his position on faith. I am not an expert. Repeat I am not an expert, but I would use caution applying the DRP to membership criteria for youth members. You have my curiosity peaked so I will look some more, but the only references to the DRP on the National site I could find, refered to membership requirements for adult leaders. I believe the membership criteria for youth are somewhat different and have some leeway that would acknowledge that youth may at times still be searching their way through the spiritual aspects of their lives, hence their participation in scouting should be encouraged as a way to help them find their way. I would certainly defer to others more knowledgable.

 

While I'm certain atheists and agnostics may not be adult leaders, the membership criteria for youth is not the same as adults. I could not specifically find the youth criteria on the website and am off to look again.

 

SA

[dan]

mk9750

IMO the forum lost a very valuable resource when you stopped posting here. I wish you would start posting more, your postings where excellent.

 

We had this discussion in the past and it seemed most posters said that a agnostic could be a member of the BSA even when guided to the website Merlyn brought up.

 

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp

 

Most posters said that it is not an official website or they understood and they where not going to follow it.

 

Good Luck

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The Randall twins were kicked out for being agnostics at age 12. The BSA legal website says that agnostics can't be members (not just adult leaders).

 

The BSA went to a lot of time & expense to kick out atheists & agnostics, why are people trying to make excuses? If you belonged to a "no Jews allowed" private organization, would you quibble over whether someone was Jewish-enough to kick out?

[scoutingagain]

I stand corrected. The DRP (At least an excerpt) is listed on the youth application.

 

SA

[SR540Beaver]

Merlyn,

 

Actually, it does not say that. Here is what it says:

 

Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership?

 

A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization.

 

The question didn't ask "why do", but asks "what allows". Semantics? Maybe, but there is a difference. Also, the answer does not speak specifically to athiests and agnostics, but is a broader answer that the BSA is a private membership group that has the constitutional right to set standards for membership.

[GernBlansten]

Merlyn is right.

The boy said the A-word.

The board should have immediately stopped and membership revocation started, preferably publicly, to demonstrate to the remaining membership that such blasphemy would not be tolerated. Sure it would destroy this young man (he should have thought about that before saying it), but it will preserve the institution for future generations of youth to be protected from such wrong thinkers.

Yes, there would be risk that other free thinking families might see this as overreaction and leave themselves. Remember, one bad apple can spoil the entire bushel.

[evmori]

Excellent point SR540Beaver! Agnostics & atheists are not one in the same.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[mk9750]

To all,

 

Thanks for so many great answers so quickly! I look forward to more.

 

Let me ask more specific questions. Would you contact anyone outside of the Troop (Distrcit or Council) about this? Who would you contact? Would you try to evade identifying the boy or tell them straight out who it is?

 

And lastly, although this certainly is an advancement issue, am I right to assume that it is a membership issue first, and therefore should be resolved by Council before the Board of Review?

 

As far as "how agnostic is he?", his position seems to be that he doesn't believe God exists, but he can't prove it. After the BoR concluded, one of the members of the Board recalled an instance while this boy was hiking on the A.T. A conversation with a very religious family sharing a shelter with our Troop caused the father of that family, a chemical engineer, to proclaim he had proof God exists because of the way the water molecule is formed and that it is the only substance that expands when it freezes. (I don't claim to understand the reasoning, I'm just the humble reporter). This boy went into a long diatribe about how that proves nothing, and something about the angle of the bonds or something like that. This Board member's understanding (in hind sight) was that this boy was taking a positive position that God did not exist, and that the chemist proved nothing.

 

And, as I think I said in the original message, this is not an immature 12 year old. This boy has thought through his position. Although he certainly may (hopefully, in my mind) change his position, he has made a definative decision that he is agnostic.

 

Dan,

 

That is very kind of you. I appreciate your warm words. I'm not so sure everyone else would appreciate my wordy posts returning, but thank you for saying you would.

 

Mark

[mk9750]

One more thing.

 

As much as appreciate everyone's right to their opinion about the right and wrong of atheists and agnostics, and as much as I appreciate everyone's right to express their opinion, it would be nice for everyone to realzie that debating the merits of the issue does not help me resolve the situation we have.

 

If everyone who wants to debate the BSA's right to exclude people would kindly do so elsewhere, so that the rest can help me resolve the specific issue, I would be VERY appreciative.

 

Thanks!

 

Mark

[DanKroh]

mk9750,

 

I don't think you can really proceed until you've had a further discussion with the boy as to the particular flavor of his agnosticism. Beaver's excellent post pointed out that agnostics are not *automatically* atheists, many of them still have a belief in God(s), but simply feel that such a belief can never be proven or disproven.

 

In fact, the minister of my church is a self-proclaimed agnostic. This is a man who went through Harvard Divinity School, was ordained as a UU minister, and continues to this day to believe in the mystery of God.

 

However, I think the boy's own words are telling in this instance "it's very difficult to be reverent to a God you have no proof exists". He didn't say "to a God who *doesn't* exist", but simply that he does not see any *proof* that God exists.

 

Does this boy (or his family) attend church anywhere? If so, you may want to suggest to him to discuss his ideas with his spiritual leader, who may be in a better position to assess and guide the boy's beliefs. If not, then maybe suggest to him to read up on belief systems that are compatable with agnosticism, such as Buddhism, Unitarian Universalism, or even Deism. Perhaps he will find something in one of them that resonates with his beliefs.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The BSA litmus test is "believe in [at least one] god"; the degree of certainty doesn't enter into it. Not all theists would say they are 100% certain that their god(s) exist, and not all atheists would say that they are 100% certain that no gods exist.

 

But the BSA standard doesn't address the degree of certainty; belief is the requirement. This scout doesn't believe in any gods, from what you've said. His degree of certainty/uncertainty doesn't matter.