Duty to God: Ideal or Obligation?

[DanKroh]

Thanks, Packsaddle, for the vote of confidence!

 

As I said, I'm looking ahead a couple of years on this, both because the current Chaplain is still doing the job, and because I'm still getting comfortable in my Cubmaster role with the pack, which I will be doing for another 3 years or so until my younger son crosses over. But maybe after I finish Wood Badge (starting that this spring), I might be ready to take on a role in the troop as well as the pack.(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[Kudu]

Just don't count on my support in your proposal.

 

Try to imagine my surprise to hear that a member of a Red State, right-wing religious organization is against the establishment of alternative Scouting associations for those against whom they discriminate! :-)

 

I trust you have a full national organization capable of taking on the charter.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "capable of taking on the charter." It sounds like you mean "cabable of taking over the Scouting monopoy." The problem here is that the idea of freedom in the marketplace is so foreign to members of the BSA that they simply can not concieve of it.

 

The Baden-Powell Scout Association is my idea of an alternative national organization. This is the smaller-scale, all-volunteer model proposed by Baden-Powell.

 

I would also support the idea of establishing additional Charters (in addition to the BSA's Charter) for other small Scouting associations. Maybe the Charter School movement can provide a model for thinking of Scouting not as a bloated government-sanctioned corporate monopoly, but as independent nimble experiments in serving small niche Scouting markets.

 

All you have to do is get folks in 218 House Districts and 51 Senators to agree to your proposition.

 

The idea that half of Congress supports Blue State values is not science fiction. The first step is to challenge the idea that the BSA's existing Congressional Charter prohibits others from using "trademarked" terms like "Scouts" and "Scouting." This is already in progress. See:

 

http://youthscouts.org/news.html

 

This challenge has been filed in San Francisco, an area not widely known for its support of the BSA's policies of discrimination. A favorable ruling there will force the BSA to appeal to the Ninth Circuit, another venue that is not always on the same page as the BSA :-/

 

If this case makes it all the way to the Supreme Court, the publicity might cause liberals, moderates, Goldwater Republicans, and libertarians to think outside the box for the very first time and challenge their unspoken assumption that big government should be in the business of establishing monopolies for institutions of religious discrimination.

 

Kudu

[Estee]

If I wish to play football, then surly I must adhere to the rules. It would be a little pointless if I decided that I did not want to be tackled and on that basis insist that the rules be changed.

 

As an alternative, why not either start your own movement or revive the Communist Pioneer youth movement?

[Trevorum]

Estee,

Welcome to the forums!

 

I'm not sure of your point - I don't think there ever was a Communist Pioneer youth movement in America.

 

But (to borrow a page from Kudu's playbook) anyone can start a football league in America and create their own rules. Not so with Scouting. BSA has a monopoly on the program and has the only rulebook and decides which rules will be changed and when. Moreover, if you start a Scouting program based on BP's model, and call it Scouting, you will be sued for infringement.

[SSScout]

I just reviewed the whole thread ( more like a rope now?).

Estee, welcome. You picked a truly classic discussion for getting your electronic feet wet.

 

MMMMM, football as a metaphor for Scouting...mmmmmm....

 

Is Scouting a religion? if so, which one? If not, is it a collection of religions? if so, which ones? Which are excluded, if any? If religions are not a defining quality of Scouting, what then is our "duty to God"? Is the BS of A the final definition of Scouting? I am not sure about that, having seen some of the rest of the Wonderful World of S-ing.

 

I have grown to like the idea that we should encourage our Scouts to do their "duty to God" as THEY see fit. It is ultimately not my job, or ANY Scouter, to tell them what that 'duty' is. Or, to try and get that Scout to see the same Ultimate Source that I see. It's a mighty big elephant and we are a mighty lot of blind men, trying to descibe how we 'see it' from our piece of elephant. (Rudyard Kipling, I believe)

 

If, as BP tried to say, the 'good turn', the 'natural woods', the 'being prepared' to help wherever and whenever one can ("why, for any old thing"),the chivalry game, all is an indirect way to bring a boy around to realizing his connectiveness to the greater world/Godhead/creation/force("use it,Luke!"), then 'good on yer', to get Australian. Take'em hiking, canoeing, camping and let the magic work. (sharp things and fire, right??)

 

If Christ is my way, as a Christian, I cannot insist that YOU have to follow MY way to good, responsible behavior. I know alot of professed Christians that sure don't look or act like him. And, to really confuse yourself, look up Gandhi's take religion. Started out Hindu, later professed to be Christian, Buddhist, Hindu and Mohammadan. Said he thought Christians should act more like Christ (radical, man!)

 

"The humble, meek, merciful,just, pious and devout souls are of one religion;

and when death has taken off the mask they will know one another, though the diverse liveries they wear here make them strangers" == William Penn ==

 

"By their fruits ye shall know them" JC said that.(look it up yerself),and a good Scout is a good Scout, be he from Bombay or Bayonne.

 

YiS.

 

(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[Hunt]

"If I wish to play football, then surly I must adhere to the rules. It would be a little pointless if I decided that I did not want to be tackled and on that basis insist that the rules be changed."

 

The youth sports leagues that my kids have played in have changed their rules numerous times.

[John-in-KC]

I have to admit, I rather like SSScout's take.

 

The object of the exercise is not MY faith. It's my HAVING a faith. It's also ensuring the youth have A faith to hang their hearts upon.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Why is "having A faith" important enough, as the start of this thread asked, to go to court to exclude six- and seven-year-old atheists?

[packsaddle]

Faith is almost inescapable in some form or another. When I go out the front door, it is an act of faith that my car will start, that my home will still be there when I return, that I WILL return, that my dog will still like me when I return, that my wife...ok, better let that one go for now....

These could be considered working assumptions but outside their independence from a supernatural hobgoblin or something, it is hard to separate these from articles of faith.

So my answer is that faith based on the supernatural should not be necessary for membership. Any form of faith should be acceptable.

[Hunt]

Who has the power to decide whether BSA should change its policy on membership requirements? It's been pretty clearly established that BSA's own leaders have that power--not the government. Therefore, the only hope of changing the policy is convincing those leaders that they should do so. It is going to be difficult for persons who demonized BSA and pursued all sorts of lawsuits against the organization to do that. I also submit that persons who refer to religious beliefs as "hobgoblins" probably have a ways to go in the persuasiveness department as well.

[packsaddle]

Hunt, as valid as your point is...and I do not for a moment dispute it, I have long known well that I will never be a diplomat nor will I likely be elected by popular vote to any office of significance. I hope you recognize, as I do, that this affords me a certain freedom not enjoyed by those who are compelled to remain, let us say, more politically correct.

 

As for the use of the term, I refer to Wikipedia for its questionable but fun version:

"Traditional local fairy tales of Britain say hobgoblins were 1 or 2 feet tall, hairy, and naked or wearing brownish clothing. They lived by the flames of the fire and rarely went outside. They were described as friendly, impish, ugly, mischievous, good-humored, helpful, mean, grotesque, and fond of practical jokes. If annoyed, they would turn nasty."

 

Some of that stuff describes me to a 'T', your choice as to which ones. I assure you, however, that I am a very corporeal being.

 

My point was that, considering the extensive variation of manifestations of supernatural deities currently accepted by BSA, it is not a huge stretch for acceptance of a faith that requires no such deity, or at least not to rely on the supernatural.

[SSScout]

 

"Duty to God"

 

Ummmmm.......

 

"I expect to pass through this world but once; any good thing therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature,

let me do it now;

let me not defer or neglect it,

for I shall not pass this way again"

= = Stephan Grellet = =

 

"He hath shown thee, O man, what is good, and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God. = = Micah 6:8 ==

 

.... Something called ""The Golden Rule"" comes to mind...

 

And many other religions (ethical systems?) also have 'instructions' that sound alot like the G/R. Try www.religiontolerance.org/reciproc.htm

 

Is it possible that Athiestic folks can do 'Duty to God" without personally acknowledging that the Duty they do is done to/for/appreciated by God with out knowing it? If I park my car in an unmarked spot without knowing that that is the spot the law wants me to park in, have I not done my duty to the law without even knowing that that is my duty? (convolution is fun if one doesn't get too dizzy)

 

Stretch yourself. Do several good turns daily.

 

YiS

[Estee]

Hmm.. I think my analogy to football was not to be taken literally. I just feel that with many institutions, organisations and the like today, can be deemed exclusionary too easily by what I would assume to be a minority of people. It would then appear that these same people would rather change the entity more out of malevolence than any other reason. My reference to the Communist Youth League was more pointed in that there is an alternative to Scouting albeit only available in China, Kazakstan and so forth.

 

I guess the bottom line is, if there are rules or a basis that defines an organisation, then, either practice a bit of tolerence or abstain from being associated with the organisation.

[Hunt]

"I guess the bottom line is, if there are rules or a basis that defines an organisation, then, either practice a bit of tolerence or abstain from being associated with the organisation."

 

I think you put your finger on something that makes this discussion so difficult: determining whether something "defines" an organization, or is tangential. I think at one extreme, we would all recognize that you shouldn't join the Elvis Presley Fan Club if you don't like Elvis Presley. On the other hand, I don't think anybody would think it unreasonable if a member of the Fan Club suggested that meetings should be held on Tuesdays rather than Wednesdays.

BSA's religion requirement is hard to place on this continuum. On the one hand, BSA says its vitally important, and its mentioned in the Oath and Law. On the other hand, the requirement is extremenly general (and non-sectarian) and is mostly invisible as the program is actually delivered to most boys. An outside observer of what Scouts are up to will hardly ever see it--what they see is boys camping, hiking, doing projects, etc. Its not surprising that many people would come to think that it's not really a defining element of Scouting, but is a tangential element that might be negotiable.