Duty to God: Ideal or Obligation?

[Trevorum]

Beav, by and large you are right. Most of us who are already here in Scouting have no problem seeing the forest for the trees. However, there ARE some Scouters out there who are convinced that THEIR religious interpretation is the only correct one. I've heard a member of our troop advancement committee state that Scouts need to accept JC in order to advance. We were able to derail that train wreck - but in another troop this fellow could have done some real damage. I have also been at a RT where the chair baldly stated that Catholics were not "Christians". He was quickly set straight by some other Scouters. I've been at a camporee chapel service where the chaplain made repeated references to JC and I witnessed a number of Scouts and Scouters - whom I knew to be non-Christians - visibly cringe at the throughtless devaluation of their beliefs.

 

So I admit I have an axe to grind - I am fervently committed to the ideal that ALL boys should have an opportunity to be Scouts and should be made welcome.

 

To my mind, the wording of the DRP is very analogous to having the 10 Commandments on display in a county courthouse. Most Americans will have no problem whatsoever with either and will indeed see them as necessary to good citizenship. But those people from a minority, non-JCI faith will sense the exclusionary atmosphere. Have no doubt about it. Buddhists and others DO wonder if they will be able to obtain justice from a county court which so boldly proclaims it's religious bias. Buddhist families and others DO wonder if they will be welcome in a youth organization which is so clearly dominated by the religious majority.

 

We need to reach out to these minority faith families, and in my opinion, we're not doing a very good job.

[Kudu]

BrentAllen writes:

 

B-P's "Religion of the Backwoods" was not just about going camping, which is what you are implying. His "Religion" was that boys would find a more real and material understanding of God through seeing His work in the natural creations on earth, as opposed to the preaching and formal religious education they received in church.

 

This kind of "argument from design" is how he packaged it for Christian adults in England, but for the Scouts it was "just about going camping." In other words, he did not require the Scouts to overlay some kind of religious understanding on their backwoods experience:

 

"Yet the natural form in religion is so simple that a child can understand it; a boy can understand it, a Boy Scout can understand it. It comes from within, from conscience, from observation, from love, for use in all that he does. It is not a formality or a dogmatic dressing donned from outside, put on for Sunday wear. It is, therefore, a true part of his character, a development of soul, and not a veneer that may peel off." See:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm

 

It was not some back-alley manner for atheists to say they had "religion."

 

Scouting is all about "back-alleys:" Scouting is a game that that teaches citizenship through indirect means.

 

Baden-Powell's Religion of the Backwoods was a back-alley manner of exposing all boys (including atheists such as Buddhists) to the natural environment in which the "realisation of God" could be attained through indirect non-verbal means. But he allowed cultures that do not worship God to substitute other terms for "God," for instance "Dharma," which can be defined as natural law or reality. All religions have this mystical way of the wilderness somewhere in their history, but as Baden-Powell's father notes in The Order of Nature, supernatural beliefs that result from this kind of encounter with nature differ from culture to culture in history and often flat-out contradict each other.

 

B-P did believe strongly in the Christian ethic of helping your fellow man, as a way of serving God. But that alone was not enough. Atheists can serve their fellow man, but they do not see that as an act of serving God, nor does it help them with a "realisation of God."

 

Perhaps you can give an example of where B-P says that good deeds are "not enough" if they are not accompanied with "seeing that as an act of serving God"?

 

Again, I believe B-P saw this as a real application of religion for the boys to practice.

 

B-P placed more importance on the actions of Scouts than on their beliefs. In other words he wanted boys learn how to be Christians by acting like Christians. To this end he introduced daily good turns as heroic acts of chivalry, an adventure game in which Scouts took on the role of knights.

 

It was another way to connect with God and bring God out of the church and into their everyday lives.

 

In non-Christian cultures this "Practical Christianity" did not require God in "their everyday lives:"

 

"Its aim should be to instill "character" into the men of the future. By "character" is meant a spirit of manly self-reliance and of unselfishness--something of the practical Christianity which (although they are Buddhists in theory) distinguishes the Burmese in their daily life" [Emphasis in original--Scouting for Boys, Scout Brotherhood Edition, page 302].

 

I'm curious - why do you think B-P included religion in Scouting?

 

B-P appears to have undergone a mystical revelation through camping before his invention of Boy Scouting. For instance:

 

"Going over these immense hills - especially when alone - and looking almost sheer down into the deep valleys between - one feels like a parasite on the shoulders of the world. There is such a bigness about it all, that opens and freshens up the mind. It's as good as a cold tub for the soul." See:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

His father died when B-P was very young. His experience of the Religion of the Backwoods echoes the writings of his father in The Order of Nature (which B-P said was "the most remarkable book he had ever read") and this must have added additional emotional depth to his convictions.

 

Was he under any pressure to include it?

 

Actually, he was forced to dumb it down following the 1921 controversy over Scouting being a possible substitute for Revealed Religion.

 

Did he think you needed to believe in God to be the best kind of citizen?

 

Not in cultures that did not worship God. Which is my point: Americans should have the religious freedom to form Scouting associations that reflect Blue State inclusive and multicultural values. The government should not be in the business of establishing a Red State religious organization with a monopoly on Scouting.

 

Kudu

 

 

[John-in-KC]

I just looked at the PRAY website.

 

Pray lists 50 different religions/denominations for religious awards. Islam is there, Buddhist is there, Judaism is there.

 

OK, I didn't see Shinto or Wiccan.

 

So... outside of a couple of churches which have WITHDRAWN THEIR SUPPORT OF SCOUTING (or BSA has withdrawn the right to wear the religious knot for a particular award), what faith groups are outside the BSA tent?

 

Inquiring minds.

[Kudu]

what faith groups are outside the BSA tent?

 

Buddhist children are welcome in the "BSA tent" after their parents affirm in writing that they are not "the best kind of citizens" because they do not recognize the Middle Eastern god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe, and because they believe in the law of karma rather than the "grateful acknowledgment" of this Middle Eastern god's "favors and blessings" as being "necessary" for anything at all.

 

The problem is that government has established religion with a religious test for citizenship in order to join Scouting.

 

Liberals, moderates, Goldwater conservatives, and libertarians have dropped the ball on this one.

 

The answer is simple enough: Establish Congressional Charters for alternative Scouting associations.

 

We could call it the Charter Scouting Movement :-/

 

This will allow religions that have "WITHDRAWN THEIR SUPPORT OF SCOUTING" (as well as those who are discriminated against in the BSA's religious awards program) the religious freedom to support a Blue State version of Scouting, rather than the BSA's Red State discrimination version.

 

(or BSA has withdrawn the right to wear the religious knot for a particular award)

 

Yes, the BSA practices religious discrimination against little children like Unitarian-Universalist Cub Scouts who want to wear their "Love and Help" award, but it has NOT withdrawn the right to wear the generic religious knot.

 

The answer for inquiring minds is in the BSA Insignia Guide.

 

Kudu

 

[DanKroh]

John-in-KC,

 

By "what faith groups are outside the BSA tent?" do you mean faith groups that do not have a religious emblem registered with the BSA (since you referenced the PRAY website)? Or do you mean religions that the BSA don't "approve of" (which is *technically* none of them)?

[Trevorum]

John,

Religious belief is far more diverse that most Americans realize (or want to acknowledge). There are quite literally hundreds of faith systems that are not on the rather parochial PRAY list. Just because there isn't an award doesn't mean that a faith is "outside the BSA tent"

 

While Kudu is correct about the monotheistic bias inherent in the wording of the DRP, I can't imagine very many people being atually turned away from registering because their faith is polytheistic (like Hinduism), or pantheistic (like some UU), kathenotheistic (like LDS), or non-theistic (like Buddhism). Would your unit turn away a family who belonged to the Native American Church? (I hope not!)

 

While it's a big tent and can fit lots of diverse Scouts, those of us who are inside don't do a very good job of welcoming folks from minority faiths. As Kudu points out, the wording of the DRP is a major impediment. And, the folks inside the tent sometimes make it appear to be an exclusive Judeo Christain club, when it is not.

[John-in-KC]

Trev,

 

The points I wished to make were:

 

The tent is pretty diverse as is.

 

I've only seen outright atheism and agnosticism being outside the tent from the National Council's view.

 

... and I am asking: What groups are outside the tent that I don't know of?

 

I also understand, there are lots of 1 & 2 church "associations" which are outside PRAY's visibility. I used PRAY because it was a resource to hand.

 

To Kudu: All you have to do is get folks in 218 House Districts and 51 Senators to agree to your proposition. I trust you have a full national organization capable of taking on the charter. Just don't count on my support in your proposal.

 

Thanks, John

[DanKroh]

"The tent is pretty diverse as is."

 

Perhaps in theory and by policy, it is. However, in the practice of many of the people who are members, not so much.

 

I've had to explain to a not insignificant number of people that no, the BSA is not a *Christian* organization. I've even had questions come up from Jewish families about whether they would be welcome in scouting. As a pagan, I've had people react very negatively to me within scouting (not within my local unit, but even at my Council level). Did I feel welcome in the "big tent"? Again, sometimes not so much.

 

There are a number of pagan religions that, while they believe in the existence of gods, do not believe that they have any sort of "duty" to those gods. Also, it would be interesting to see how the BSA would react to members of religions that do not have a positive reputation in the general public, like Satanism, Vodun, Santeria, Hare Krishna, etc. Are those included in the "big tent"?

[packsaddle]

Dan, you're welcome in our unit any time. I guess I am missing something regarding the 'big tent' concept. As I used to remind Rooster7 back before he fell on his sword, there is no person nor any group of persons that can truly know what is in someone's mind. If someone signs the application (no matter what flavor of faith they have), then that should be the end of the inquisition.

Dan, I have sometimes wondered how you have been viewed by other scouters. Of the members of BSA that understand your faith, do you think a majority of them view Pagans negatively?

 

[Trevorum]

In my experience, people at the unit level are generally very welcoming of all families regardless of faith.

 

I've also found that the Scouters and professionals at the National level to be very accepting of all faiths.

 

It's the Scouters in the middle - at district and council levels - who can be less than tolerant of religious diversity. Curious.

[DanKroh]

Pack, the folks in the units I am associated with (a pack and a troop) have been very welcoming, for the most part.

 

Most of the people I've encountered in the BSA who actually understand my faith (as opposed to what they have seen in bad horror movies) are pretty tolerant. I have had some scouters look at me like I have two heads; some obviously have a pre-formed negative opinion of what a pagan is and aren't about to let anything as trivial as facts change it, because that negative opinion are dicated by *their* religion. But I live in a pretty tolerant area of the country that has pretty low density of fundamentalists.

 

I did have one incident with a boy in my older son's troop, who was taking archery merit badge with me, look at my pentagram ring and tell me I must be an evil devil worshipper. I think he was mostly just smarting off a bit rather than being really serious, to see if he could bait me. The SM (whose son was also in the MB session) did his next SM minute on respecting religious diversity

 

I've been told on the QT that the troop Chaplain doesn't have a high opinion of Pagans, but he's never said anything overt to me or my son to indicate it. An interesting test of the tolerance of the troop leadership will be when he leaves in a couple of years, I am actually interested in taking over the Chaplain position; I am registered clergy, after all. But even with all the UUs on the troop committee, it will in interesting to see if they be able to accept a pagan Chaplain for the troop.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Dan, (if you dont mind sharing)

Let me a member of the Troop Committee for a minute.

Give me/us an overview of your beliefs.

Please explain what makes you eligible for the job of Chaplain under the DRP?

How can your faith knowledge be of service to our unit?

FB

[DanKroh]

No, I don't mind at all Fuzzy. Sharing knowledge is the only tool we have for defeating ignorance, after all.

 

There are many, many belief systems that fall under the umbrella of Pagan. My particular beliefs are Wiccan-ish (big debate in the Pagan community I won't bore you with, but I'm not a traditional Wiccan because I'm not in the British Tradition). I believe that the creative force of the Universe has male and female aspects, which we generally refer to as the God and Goddess. The particular gods I name generally are from the Welsh pantheon.

 

Wicca beliefs do include a duty to those gods to be good stewards of the gifts we have been given; the Earth around us and the living things on it (including the people).

 

I think I would be a good Chaplain because I have studied many different belief systems, even if I never followed them myself. I was raised as a Protestant (UMC), explored Catholicism in high school, studied Buddism, Hinduism, and Islam in college, married a Jew, and now worship as a Pagan at a UU church. I feel that I would be able to encourage any boy to follow their own particular path, even if I don't follow that path myself. I would also be able to educate any boy who was interested in what the differences are of faiths other than his own, while encouraging him to respect all other faiths without prosletyzing for any one set of beliefs.

 

As far as the BSA, I think the religious emblem program is admirable, and I would love to see it expanded to include emblems from more faiths. I think learning about religion is a worthy goal, and would encourage all boys to earn at least one religious emblem during their tenure as a scout.

 

I love the idea of the scout's own service, and have participated in some beautiful ones in our unit that have been inclusive yet meaningful. As a registered clergy, I have some experience preparing liturgy, and I would be happy to share that experience with the boys who are leading their own services.

 

What do you think?

[packsaddle]

Dan, I suppose it's possible for UUs to reject but I can't imagine it. I'd certainly support you for the position where we are and we don't have a single UU in the unit.

[packsaddle]

Dan, I suppose it's possible for UUs to reject but I can't imagine it. I'd certainly support you for the position where we are and we don't have a single UU in the unit.