Duty to God: Ideal or Obligation?

[Trevorum]

If the DRP was no longer a joining requirement, I don't see why there would be any panicky exodus. The Oath and Law would be the same. Units that are chartered by churches would go on providing the same program as before.

 

I think the change would have no effect for 99% of all scouts. What it would do however, is make scouting accessible to the increasing number of boys whose families are humanist, agnostic, and nontheist. In my opinion, Scouting can hugely benefit ALL boys and excluding some is short-sighted.

[GernBlansten]

The DRP as I see it is the primary reason BSA faces court battles with the ACLU. If BSA left the choice to enforce a DRP to the charter organization, why would there be a mass exodus from scouting? You want alot of religion in your scouting? Go to a CO that emphasises that. You want alot of adventure in your scouting? Go to a CO that supports that. You want a mix? Find a unit that suits your requirements.

[Kudu]

BrentAllen quotes Baden-Powell:

 

"There is no religious side to the Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realisation and service of God."

 

1) Baden-Powell's "realization" of God was through immersion in the great outdoors (what he called the "Religion of the Backwoods"), as in the sub-heading of Rovering to Success: "Nature Knowledge as a Step Towards Realizing God."

 

2) Baden-Powell's "service" of God, was through good deeds (what he called "Practical Christianity"), as in the Scout Promise: "to help other people at all times".

 

"I have been asked to describe more fully what was in my mind as regards religion when I instituted Scouting and Guiding. I was asked: 'Where does religion come in?' Well, my reply is: 'It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is the fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding."

 

Yes, exactly. Scouting is a game that employs very indirect means to achieve its ends. When we view Scouting as a progressive approach to spiritual development, then for a Scout not to do his duty to God would require that he refuse to camp in the woods and to help other people at all times!

 

"There may be many difficulties relating to definition of the religious training in our Movement where so many different denominations exist, and the details of the expression of duty to God have, therefore, to be left largely in the hands of the local authority.

 

"Local authority" is the key concept here. In other versions, Baden-Powell substituted the term "association," or left it up to the parents:

 

"Many difficulties may arise while defining religious formation in a Movement such as ours, where many religions coexist; so, the details of the various forms of expressing the duty to God must be left to those responsible of each single association. We insist however on observance and practice of that form of religion the boys profess."

 

and

 

"The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes."

 

To religious fundamentalists in a country like the USA where the government establishes a conservative religious organization with a "local authority" monopoly on Scouting, the meaning of Baden-Powell's quotes seems to be self-evident: that religion is something to be used like a clove of garlic to repel the very "hooligans" that B-P insisted we try to "catch."

 

But in a free country that protects minorities from the tyranny of discrimination by the majority, alternative Scouting associations, such as the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA), become the "local authority" for those who seek a more humanistic, multicultural approach to religion or ethical education based on Baden-Powell.

 

...But we insist on the observance and practice of whatever form of religion the boy professes."

 

Most of the atheist parents and Scouts that I have met would be perfectly happy with the boy professing camping and service to others as a religion :-)

 

Baden-Powell's use of the term "religion" was inclusive and progressive. He quoted Carlyle as saying: "The religion of a man is not the creed he professes but his life--what he acts upon, and knows of life, and his duty in it. A bad man who believes in a creed is no more religious than the good man who does not."

 

Kudu

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

When anyone joins Scouting, they must first declare they will abide by the religious part of the Oath, Law, Promise, etc. and then they must learn and recite them repeatedly. Logically, I am assuming that learning and saying these oaths do not entail the actual promise of action. If I understand this correctly, it would be much easier to rewrite the oaths to say something like, I (state your name) promise to,or On my Honor I will, etc.

(* I thought that it was already written that way but then maybe that is not what it means or my copy is too old.)

 

If you follow my supposition that the promise to act on the religious principle simply by stating the oaths is insufficient, then I must also assume that the remainder of the oaths is invalid as well. Now, if this holds and anyone cares, there should be a Declaration of National Allegiance, a Declaration of Scouting Allegiance, a Declaration of Allegiance to Service, a Declaration of Fitness and a Declaration of Alertness. I assume that the officials have already considered this point and have decided that the other Declarations are superfluous and/or they are not really all that important.

 

My last thought on this subject is that if the other parts of the oaths lack fundamental importance enough to merit a Declaration of their own, then I am left to assume that the underlying principle of the oaths is the Declaration of Religious Principle alone. If the DRP is a stand alone doctrine, then the oaths should be dismissed entirely as being inadequate to support the mission of Scouting and the DRP would be enough and all of the recitation could finally end. FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[John-in-KC]

It seems to me these days that many folks think in terms of black and white.

 

If the DRP is quietly dropped ... in other words, it just happens one day with a new app cycle, folks may or may not notice.

 

OTOH, if National, and our Councils, were to put out a constant contact message about this change, it'd be at a newspaper or TV/radio station before the sun went down, and the headline would be "Boy Scouts Abandon God."

 

Councils do not seem to be organized to turn on a dime to the news cycle. The news would be ahead of the "official statements." That alone would cause folks to go away.

 

Additionally, the "slippery slope" theory would kick in. Whether meant to be or not, dropping the DRP would be perceived as starting to abandon God in Scouting.

 

So... if Scouting dropped the DRP, in my local area:

 

1) Kiss goodbye LDS Scouting units, and watch for the folks in SLC to announce dropping of Scouting as their national young mens' program. Again, my Council has a significant percentage of LDS units, because of its location on the Migration Trail.

 

2) Watch certain parents pull their kids from the program in favor of Awana and Royal Rangers.

 

My thoughts and evaluation. If you don't think so, that's your right, but it's my right to stick my tongue out, go Nyahhhhhhh! and say "I told you so" should this ever come to pass.

[GernBlansten]

The DRP makes Scouting appear as a youth organization centered around a religious locus. However, in reality, the religious component to scouting is so watered down and generic that it won't suffice to fulfill anyone's spiritual needs. Of the 120 or so merit badges, none are religious. There is no specific religious requirement in any of the rank advancements. In the scout handbook, religion warrants just a few paragraphs. Sure there are religious awards, but none are required unless a CO makes it so.

 

To me, the DRP is unnecessary. Just as unnecessary as a Declaration of Patriotism. The oath and law cover it. Its redundant.

 

I too live in an district that has 40% of the registered scouts are LDS and 60% of the units are LDS. They run their own program with a focus on their religion. I doubt the dropping of the DRP would effect their program one iota, how could it?

[BrentAllen]

Kudu,

All I can say is your liberal reading of B-P is flawed.

 

B-P's "Religion of the Backwoods" was not just about going camping, which is what you are implying. His "Religion" was that boys would find a more real and material understanding of God through seeing His work in the natural creations on earth, as opposed to the preaching and formal religious education they received in church. It was not some back-alley manner for atheists to say they had "religion."

 

B-P did believe strongly in the Christian ethic of helping your fellow man, as a way of serving God. But that alone was not enough. Atheists can serve their fellow man, but they do not see that as an act of serving God, nor does it help them with a "realisation of God." Again, I believe B-P saw this as a real application of religion for the boys to practice. It was another way to connect with God and bring God out of the church and into their everyday lives.

 

I'm curious - why do you think B-P included religion in Scouting? Was he under any pressure to include it? Did he think you needed to believe in God to be the best kind of citizen?

[Fuzzy Bear]

The LDS Church did not enter the BSA because there was a DRP. They entered before there existed a DRP. If it were removed, the circumstance would remain the same as the day they entered. Scouting declared the religious principle when JW changed the original Scout Law. God is represented in the Oath and the Law and people are pledging to do their duty to God based upon their personal honor. If someone refuses to do duty to their God, then they openly are refusing to be a Scout.

 

It is this same issue that we speak about when we argue about Scouts and Leaders cheating on badges in Troops and at summer camps. A person's honor is all that we fundamentally have and it is what defines us as an individual. Adding a declaration negates an individual's personal word of honor. To give back the DRP is to reinstitute an individual's personal worth and to give dignity to their promise. If a person needs declarations to hold to their honor, then their personal worth is in question. FB

 

[BrentAllen]

Gern writes: "There is no specific religious requirement in any of the rank advancements."

 

There are in Cub Scouts.

[Venividi]

Fuzzy Bear,

 

I like your logic. But I see a parallel to the "under god" words in the pledge of allegience. Even though at one time it wasn't there, many people would have a strong sense of "losing something" if it was removed.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Honor would be restored. If that is hollow, then Scouting has done a disservice to itself. FB

[Hunt]

Here's a modest proposal: rather than dropping the DRP, add the following to it: "The Boy Scouts of American recognizes that adherence to a non-theistic ethical system that is consistent with the values of Scouting satisfies the religious requirements for membership."

 

Would that drive out LDS, or anybody else?

[SSScout]

"On my honor,I will do my best..." (BSA)

 

"On my honor, I will try..." (GSA)

 

" Swear not at all...

but let your communication be Yea, yea; Nea nea..." (JC/Mathew/KJB)

 

"It's for the kids" (Bob T. Tomatoe)

 

YiS

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

Hunt, I can't speak for mormons, but I think the statement would certainly clarify how Buddhists and other non-theists can be members.

[Beavah]

Does anybody who doesn't have an axe to grind really care?

 

Seriously, a Buddhist kid gets invited to a Pack open house or a Troop campout. He and his parents make a decision based on whether they are welcomed, treated kindly, and whether it's fun/educational. Nobody reads the DRP lookin' to make a legal case or a thesis on moral theology. Heck, usually nobody reads da DRP at all - Unless they've got an axe to grind, and are less interested in scoutin' than they are in agenda-pushin'. Those types shouldn't be in Scoutin' no matter what their agenda is, eh?