Duty to God: Ideal or Obligation?

[Kudu]

emb021 writes:

 

Not like it is in France, when there are separate scouting associations for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and other religious groups. In the US, ALL these groups are part of the BSA.

 

Only those Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and other religious groups who are not repelled by the BSA's Red State religious values.

 

Such an interpretation is incorrect, and I feel WOSM backs me on this.

 

But there is not much the WOSM can do to correct the BSA, can it? The WOSM is really just a cartel of Scouting monopolies.

 

ALL scouts must subscribe to some religious belief.

 

Not all Scouts, some countries have alternative "god-less" oaths. Duty to God should be an ideal, not an obligation. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

 

There is no list of approved religions, and just looking at the list of those that have BSA-approved religious awards includes several that DON'T use the term "GOD"

 

But to join they must first affirm in writing that they are not the "best type of citizens." Forcing a Buddhist to affirm the god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and that the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings is necessary for the "best type of citizenship," is like forcing a Jew to accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior, while allowing him the freedom to define "Jesus Christ" any way he wants.

 

People who get worked up about this on both sides of the issue are wrong.

 

It depends on how you feel about going to court to exclude six and seven year-old children from Scouting.

 

The problem with the BSA is not its religious fundamentalist values, the problem is that government has established one religious corporation with a monopoly on Scouting.

 

Religious fundamentalists and religious liberals (the ones who try to change the BSA) both want government to impose their views on everyone else through this monopoly, while moderates generally believe that Scouting is what happens on the local level in individual units.

 

The BSA will change when God makes a personal pilgrimage to Rome and Salt Lake City, OR when liberals and moderates work together to establish alternative Scouting associations in the United States.

 

Whichever comes first.

 

Kudu

 

 

[GernBlansten]

I've been wondering what the effect would be if BSA dropped the DRP? Everything else being held the same, what would the net result be?

 

In my opinion, nothing negative, only positive.

 

On the positive:

Yes, atheists could join, but may not advance in all units because they might not satisfy the Scout Oath to the degree the unit requires. But how many units hold scouts to the Duty to Country as high as Duty to God? Religious charter orgs could and should control their standards for membership, dropping the DRP wouldn't change that. The ACLU would have nothing to complain about. Schools could charter units again.

 

On the negative: Can't really think of anything negative. I'm sure y'all could come up with something.

[packsaddle]

Gern, the first negative that comes to my mind if your scenario became reality...is that some would then have more time to devote to the subjugation of women and the discrimination against various minorities.

[BrentAllen]

Kudu,

You have let us know your desire to carry out Scouting as B-P originally designed. OK, let's take a look at B-P's thoughts on religion.

 

From Scouting For Boys, 1908 Edition, by Robert Baden-Powell

Part IV, Self-Improvement

Duty To God

 

"Religion is a very simple thing:

1st. To believe in God

2nd. To do good to other people

 

... No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws (hmmmm, what does that sound like?). So every scout should have a religion.

There are many kinds of religion such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Mohammedans, and so on, but the main point about them is that the all worship God, although in different ways. They are like an army which serves one king, though it is divided into different branches, such as cavalry, artillery, and infantry, and these wear different uniforms. So, when you meet a boy of a different religion from your own, you should not be hostile to him, but recognise that he is like a soldier in your own army, though in a different uniform, and still serving the same king as you."

 

Sounds to me like B-P felt religion was an obligation, and that religion was required to be a good man. Are you saying B-P was wrong?

 

What about the original Scout Oath?

 

"On my honour I promise that-

1. I will do my duty to God and the King

2. I will do my best to help others, whatever it costs me.

3. I know the scout law, and will obey it.

 

Scout's Salute

The three fingers held up (like the three points of the scout's badge) remind him of his three promises in the scout's oath.

1. Honour God and the King.

2. Help others.

3. Obey the Scout Law."

 

Again, it looks like B-P felt pretty strongly about serving God, as part of Scouting. Do you disagree?

[GernBlansten]

Brent,

How would dropping the DRP effect how you deliver the program in your unit?

[Beavah]

I think da core principle is that we want boys, and therefore leaders, to have a primary duty / obligation / inspiration to something

 

1) other than themselves.

2) and bigger than their family / tribe.

3) and bigger than their nation.

4) and, yah, bigger than their religion.

 

We want them to acknowledge that serving yourself, or serving only the family (Hatfields & McCoys) / tribe (see current Middle East) / nation (see 20th century facism) / religion (pick your favorite pogrom) can be corrupt and even wicked.

 

We want boys and their leaders to serve "God" as in "Ideals which Trump all human self-interest."

 

Dat's what B-P meant, usin' the language of his culture and his time. That's what the DRP means, or should mean. Nothin' more or less.

 

Let the individuals and CO's decide on their own language and spin as long as they honor the intent. I'd rather have an atheist leader willing to give up all his vacation time just for love of seein' kids grow than a religious scouter lookin' to advance the cause of his particular political persuasion. But I also object to da atheist pushin' scouting membership in order to advance his particular political persuasion.

 

 

 

 

[Kudu]

Sounds to me like B-P felt religion was an obligation, and that religion was required to be a good man. Are you saying B-P was wrong?

 

... Again, it looks like B-P felt pretty strongly about serving God, as part of Scouting. Do you disagree?

 

Reading Baden-Powell is a bit like reading the Bible: You can find passages to back up just about anything you believe. I believe that excluding six and seven year-olds from Scouting is the same as turning your back on God, and find that to be the plain meaning of Matthew 19:13,14. On the other hand, if someone wants to drive north to purchase some Canadians, we must admit that this is permissible under the slavery guidelines set forth in Leviticus!

 

So it would seem to those who support the BSA's exclusion of atheists that a fair reading of the passages you cite would justify the BSA's policies. However, a Scouting association that includes Scouts who do not believe in God can be justified by viewing these passages in the context of other writings by Baden-Powell:

 

1. Baden-Powell's approach to religion in Scouting was two-fold: the outward and the inward. He called the outward expression of religion "Practical Christianity" ("Help other people at all times"), and he called the inward experience of religion "The Religion of the Backwoods" ("Nature Knowledge as a Step Towards Realizing God").

 

2. To practice Practical Christianity you did not need to be a Christian or even believe in God, "By 'character' is meant a spirit of manly self-reliance and of unselfishness--something of the practical Christianity which (although they are Buddhists in theory) distinguishes the Burmese in their daily life." (Scouting for Boys, Scout Brotherhood Edition, page 302).

 

3. Baden-Powell's "usual church" was the backwoods. He spoke of his camping equipment as his "toys" and wrote, "May it not be that our toys are the various media adapted to individual tastes through which men may know their God?" Baden-Powell, Tim Jeal, page 203.

 

4. Baden-Powell never wrote that boys who do not believe in God should be excluded from Scouting, but he did have a specific five-part plan for dealing with "lads of practically no religion of any kind":

 

"The practical way in which Scouting can help is through the following:

 

(a) Personal example of the Scoutmaster.

(b) Nature study.

© Good turns.

(d) Missioner service [care for the sick].

(e) Retention of the older boy."

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm#no_religion

 

Note that this process included the indirect means of both Practical Christianity and the Religion of the Backwoods.

 

5. The quotes that you reference were all written for English Scouts, but Baden-Powell accepted god-less "Outlander" Scout Promises in cultures that did not worship God (Burma, for instance). According to oral tradition, he referred to English boys who "could not make the full Scout Promise" as "Outlanders" (republicans who would not swear a Duty to the King, for instance).

 

The BSA Scout Oath is an Outlander Promise because it does not include a Duty to the King, and I would argue that our culture includes enough Buddhists, Unitarian-Universalists, Ethical Culturists, etc. to justify an Outlander Oath in alternative Scouting associations for those who do not wish to be associated with the BSA or WOSM.

 

The following is the optional Baden-Powell Scout Association in America (BPSA-USA) Outlander Promise:

 

On my honor I promise to do my best:

To render service to my country;

To help other people at all times;

To obey the Scout Law.

 

6. Baden-Powell's spiritual views (as well as those of his famous father, whose radical religious-progressive writings greatly influenced B-P) are described by some biographers as "pantheistic." I always ask my atheist Scouts to define the God that they don't believe in, and their disbelief is always centered on the existence of supernatural powers (the "ruling and leading power in the universe" stuff). I find that none of them have objections to a pantheistic definition of God (God as the sum-total of all of the natural laws in the universe, for example). Once they can explain that in their own words, surprisingly they do not become pantheists but for some reason adopt a conventional belief in God.

 

It is the skeptical boys with the courage to express their spiritual doubt that are most likely to come back in ten years as clergy. This is why Scouting is a game: Duty to God is an Ideal to be reached through very indirect means. It is inclusive, not exclusive.

 

More background information on Baden-Powell's progressive views on Scouting and religion can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

Kudu

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Kudu,

It appears to me that straight-forward statements from B-P give a clear explanation of his thoughts on religion in Scouting. From your own webpage:

 

"It must be remembered that we have in our Movement boys of almost every religious belief, and it is, therefore, impossible to lay down definite rules for guidance in religious teaching. The following is the attitude of the Scout Movement as regards religion approved by the heads of all the different denominations on our Council:

(a) It is expected that every Scout shall belong to some religious denomination, and attend its services.

(b) Where a Troop is composed of members of one particular form of religion, it is hoped that the Scoutmaster will arrange such denominational religious observances and instruction as he, in consultation with its Chaplain or other religious authority may consider best.

© Where a Troop consists of Scouts of various religions they should be encouraged to attend the service of their own denomination, and in camp, any form of daily prayer and of weekly Divine service should be of the simplest character, attendance being voluntary." (I don't see anything about atheists)

 

On the other hand, you and Jeal have to take the most convoluted route to arrive at your conclusions.

 

All of the information in your previous post may be true - Practical Christianity and the Religion of the Backwoods. However, what he wrote in his book on the subject of teaching boys to be Scouts is pretty clear. Do you think B-P expected the boys to dig around to arrive at your conclusion, or to read Scouting For Boys and learn that "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every scout should have a religion."? The answer is as plain as the nose on my face.

 

Now, if you want to open the "You can find passages to back up just about anything" can of worms, then we can have a lot of fun with your other ideas, say, about WB, for example.

[Trevorum]

I think Beavah nailed it.

[Kudu]

It appears to me that straight-forward statements from B-P give a clear explanation of his thoughts on religion in Scouting.

 

His progressive statements about Practical Christianity and the Religion of the Backwoods are equally clear.

 

These two elements: the outward (good works to benefit human society) and the inward (mystical retreat from society to the wilderness) can be found in almost every religious tradition, and B-P earnestly believed that Scouting would reinforce the "book learning" that every Scout learned in his own "church school."

 

But let's face it, if you don't believe in the supernatural or exclusive claims of any one religion, isn't Practical Christianity and the Religion of the Backwoods (combined with B-P's ten Scout Laws and the brotherhood of Scouting) a sufficient form of religion in itself?

 

Baden-Powell's movement depended on churches as sponsoring organizations, but an Anglican "cleric who overheard Alan Chapman at Gilwell describing the Scout Movement as 'a bigger thing than Christianity' told Baden-Powell that, if he himself thought so, he would destroy the Movement as a national institution. Bishop Joseph Butt, auxiliary bishop to the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Westminster, accused Baden-Powell of 'sweeping with one magnificent gesture the Christian Revelation, Mohammedanism, and all the rest, into a heap of private opinions which do not matter much'" (Jeal, page 515).

 

Baden-Powell knew that the church could play hard ball. His famous father had died facing charges of heresy for his progressive views, and as a young boy, B-P heard clerics publicly assert that his father had died without the benefit of eternal life.

 

"Expecting" every Scout to pick a church and attend its services is a reflection of the political realities of English culture 100 years ago, but Baden-Powell was not much of a church-goer himself.

 

On the other hand, you and Jeal have to take the most convoluted route to arrive at your conclusions.

 

Baden-Powell was a man of many contradictions. To acknowledge this complexity is the opposite of religious fundamentalism, which is the practice of cherry-picking the passages that support the so-called "simple truth" that the central message of Jesus or Baden-Powell demands discrimination and exclusion.

 

Do you think B-P expected the boys to dig around to arrive at your conclusion

 

B-P expected boys to play a game called Scouting. Along the way Christian boys would learn to act like Christians not by reading something, but by helping other people at all times. They would learn something about the hand of their "Creator" by studying his "creation," nature, close up. B-P's game was all about catching hooligans, not excluding them.

 

or to read Scouting For Boys and learn that "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every scout should have a religion."?

 

Unlike the church attendance stuff, this statement probably reflects Baden-Powell's true values, at least in his capacity as a role model for English boys. He was a national war hero and no doubt English boys were inspired by the passage. But again, the statement is not a universal statement about the goodness of men in other cultures: he used a country that did not believe in God as his example of good character, and his own "religion" was the backwoods.

 

Now, if you want to open the "You can find passages to back up just about anything" can of worms, then we can have a lot of fun with your other ideas....

 

Yes, well on the subject of fun: under the topic of "Religion" in his "Notes to Instructors" in the 1908 edition of Scouting for Boys Baden-Powell writes "Charles Stelzle, in his 'Boys of the Streets and How to Win Them,' says:

 

'Sometimes we are so much concerned about there being enough religion in our plans for the boy that we forget to leave enough boy in the plans. According to the notions of some, the ideal boys' club would consist of prayer meetings and Bible classes, with an occasional missionary talk as a treat, and perhaps magic lantern views of the Holy Land as a dizzy climax'

 

"Religion can and ought to be taught to the boy, but not in a milk-and-watery way, or in a mysterious and lugubrious manner; he is very ready to receive it if it is shown in its heroic side and as a natural every-day quality in every proper man, and it can be well introduced to boys through the study of Nature; and to those who believe scouting to be an unfit subject for Sunday instruction, surely the study of God's work is at least proper for that day. There is no need for this instruction to be dismal, that is 'all tears and texts.' Arthur Benson, writing in the Cornhill Magazine says there are four Christian virtues, not three. They are--Faith, Hope, Charity--and Humor" (SfB, Part V, page 276).

 

Kudu

 

 

[packsaddle]

"But let's face it, if you don't believe in the supernatural or exclusive claims of any one religion, isn't Practical Christianity and the Religion of the Backwoods (combined with B-P's ten Scout Laws and the brotherhood of Scouting) a sufficient form of religion in itself?"

 

Absolutely! I believe that if the fundamentalists would allow it, BSA would gladly put this into practice.

 

An additional observation: online dictionaries recorded today a surge in searches regarding the term, "lugubrious". I predict that in the near future we will read it often in the more lugubrious threads of this forum. Tonight I will complement my wife on her lugubrious demeanor. After that I will notice that the dictionary has been moved and I will later pay for the remark. Sorry, can't resist.

 

[BrentAllen]

Before discussing this any further, maybe we need to define the terms.

ideal: an ultimate object or aim of endeavor: goal

obligation: something that one is bound to do or forbear (as by law, conscience or social pressure)

 

From B-P:

"There is no religious side to the Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realisation and service of God."

 

"I have been asked to describe more fully what was in my mind as regards religion when I instituted Scouting and Guiding. I was asked: 'Where does religion come in?'

Well, my reply is: 'It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is the fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding."

 

Finally,

"There may be many difficulties relating to definition of the religious training in our Movement where so many different denominations exist, and the details of the expression of duty to God have, therefore, to be left largely in the hands of the local authority. But we insist on the observance and practice of whatever form of religion the boy professes."

 

I don't know about y'all, but "insist on the observance" sounds like a requirement, or an obligation, instead of a goal or aim.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Invoking the name of Saint BP is to appeal to the highest power to resolve our present situation. It is a nice try but falls short of the mark. The powers that be have made their decision and it is their opinion that counts and we haven't even named one of 'em. Since the atheists refuse to appeal to a higher power and the R.R. won't invoke the name of theirs to change it for them, then it appears we remain stalemated.

 

But since we are moving historical figures around the checker board, I call on the good name of James West. Mr. West added to the Scout Law, which further defined our present day decision. He rang the bell and now we have a knot that can't be untied no matter whom we call on. FB

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[John-in-KC]

To answer you, Mr Blansten,

 

1) I would see an immediate and significant drop in UNITS within my District. Kansas City, because of its history within the Mormon migration, has more than a few LDS packs and troops. They'd be gone, instantly. I do not even think they would wait for the recharter cycle.

 

2) I would have families who would drop Scouting for Royal Rangers and AWANA, almost instantly. These families believe that the Godhead is a major part of growth and development for their kids.

 

My thoughts here.

[emb021]

"To answer you, Mr Blansten,

 

"1) I would see an immediate and significant drop in UNITS within my District. Kansas City, because of its history within the Mormon migration, has more than a few LDS packs and troops. They'd be gone, instantly. I do not even think they would wait for the recharter cycle. "

 

"2) I would have families who would drop Scouting for Royal Rangers and AWANA, almost instantly. These families believe that the Godhead is a major part of growth and development for their kids. "

 

Mr. Bransten's question was regarding dropping the DRP, NOT dropping "Duty to God" from the Oath or a "Scout is Reverent" from the Law. Why would dropping the DRP cause this reaction? Doing so would not negate what is in the Oath/Law.