Choosing my religion

[Trevorum]

SR540, I agree with packsaddle. Religious Education (RE) can be an important element in childhood socialization, regardless of the flavor chosen by the parents. I strongly feel that parents should expose their children to a variety of beliefs so that the child can follow their own spiritual path. I'm not certain yet what direction my own children will follow, but it will be their own journey of discovery and not mine.

 

I'd also like to point out that religious heritage is an important part of our shared culture. A person who does not know the stories of Noah, Jonah, and Elijah is at a disadvantage in our society. They are as important to our cultural history as are the stories of Herakles, Achilles, and Spartacus.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I took the Belief-O-Matic about two years ago. We started with the U.U.'s about the same time on Sunday mornings. I now take my boys to the Buddhist meditations on Tuesday evenings. They can almost last the hour. I also daily meditate with the Tao. The B-O-M changed my life. FB

[DanKroh]

Beaver: "If religion doesn't play a part in her life, why does she see a need to get her children religious training? To what end? Is it kind of like teaching your kid how to do the waltz on the outside chance that he might be invited to a state dinner and ball someday?"

 

I think the answer has to do with the difference between trying to educate about religion and trying to indoctrinate into a particular religion.

 

For parents that believe that their faith is the "only way", their goal is to indoctrinate the children into their faith.

 

However, if the parents are willing to let the children choose their own religious path, then their goal is to educate. And I think that can be independent of how important religion is or isn't in the parent's life.

 

For example, my faith is extremely important in my life. However, it does not dictate that I must raise my children to follow my faith. In fact, since they come from a multi-faith family, my desire is to educate them about those faiths, to the best of my ability, and let them choose when they are capable of making that choice. But they have lost the major Jewish influence in their lives. I've tried to fill in the gaps as best I can, but I'm not Jewish. I could see myself taking them to Shul so that they could learn more about the Jewish faith. Judaism is not what I practice at home, but I do want my children to know about the practice, to honor that part of their heritage and give them an informed choice.

 

As far as what gets modeled for them at home, while I don't specifically model Judaism or Christianity, I do try to model moral and ethical behavior that is compatable with either faith, which also happens to be compatable with MY faith.

 

At 12, my older son seems to be leaning toward Paganism, but he understands why we celebrate Hannukah and Passover when we are visiting one set of grandparents, and why we celebrate Christmas and Easter with the other set. My younger son (at 7) still considers himself a "seeker" (his term) still deciding on his religious path. My goal is to give him the education he will need to eventually make the decision that's right for him.

[fgoodwin]

I can't speak for everybody, but in my case, I grew up in the church, left it in college and during the early years of my marriage, but came back when we had kids.

 

I came to the realization that, as an adult, I had the freedom to choose which faith (or none) that I wanted to profess. Unchurched kids don't have the information to make that choice intelligently.

 

So my wife and I agreed that we should bring our kids up in a church, and then let them decide as they grew older which church (or none) that they wanted to attend.

 

My rationale was basically along the lines of: its easier to expose a child to faith early in life, rather than later. In other words, I thought it would be very difficult to bring a teen-ager to church if he or she had never been as a child. But if my kids had been going to church all along, then decided later in life to stop, I'd be OK with that.

 

Maybe my position isn't logical, but I can identify with the position of the author of the article. I think kids are better off in the long run by being exposed to faith as soon as possible, rather than later.

 

I know not everyone agrees, but that's how my wife and I are doing it.

[packsaddle]

When I was a child, being indoctrinated into the Presbyterian flavor, the bible stories were even better than 'The Lone Ranger'. No where in the media could I hear a story about how the heroine drove a tent peg through a guy's head, or how a supernatural being convinces a father to kill his own son just to test him, or how the supernatural being causes the earth to swallow up infidels, or how the SB kills off a slew of first born children for the sins of the fathers, or how the little girl's dance elicited a pledge to the king's wife to cut a prophet's head off and have it delivered on a platter, or, or.... Wow! That stuff was what we really wanted: sex, violence, betrayal, debauchery, death, destruction. Didn't get much better...until Star Wars came along. But like I've said before, the myths are all such great fun.

BTW, took me a while to come to terms with the logical conundrums of predestination - just another twist to the time travel paradox. Still fun.

[fgoodwin]

PS:

 

Like I said, I'm doing the best I can to raise my kids.

 

You are free to raise your kids as godless atheists if you want -- you won't get an argument from me.

 

But I know that won't stop you from thinking that people of faith are brainwashing our kids.

 

YiS,

 

Fred

[DanKroh]

Fred: "But I know that won't stop you from thinking that people of faith are brainwashing our kids."

 

Well, I'm not packsaddle, but I would like to address this comment for a moment.

 

I don't think all people of faith brainwash their kids.

 

However, I certainly do think that SOME of them do (although brainwashing is probably a stronger term than I would use).

 

I was at a function recently with some friends who were Evangelical Christians (not sure what specific denomination). The father got up during dinner and made a very proud announcement that his three year old daughter had "accepted Jesus into her heart as her Savior".

 

Three years old.... Do you really believe that a three-year-old has any real concept of what she is saying when she "accepts Jesus" other than that this is something that Mommy and Daddy expect her to do and it makes them happy?

 

That is the level of indoctrination that I find disturbing among some people of faith.

[SR540Beaver]

Indoctrination. It is one of those words that has developed an ugly persona over time. It conjures up images of communists, Islamo-fascist and cult leaders. Allow me to give you my views from a more "traditional" Judeo-Christian perspective about religious "training" of your children.

 

We can not separate ourselves from our ehtnicity or our nationality. We can not separate ourselves from our gender. There are just things that we are. Yes we often have choices, but some choices choose to accept certain things as truth and to not depart from it.

 

How many of us would look at morals and ethics and say that we want to expose our children to all of the various facets of morals and ethics and let them choose a path? Choose a path they will.....they are after all human. But as children, do we decide to let them engage in sexual activity, curse, steal, lie, etc.? No, we were raised to be moral and ethical people by our parents who were raised that way by their parents and on and on.

 

For me, my faith is the same way. To me, I have to ask what kind of parent I would be if I exposed my son to all of the moral choices out there and all of the religious choices out there. I was Baptist first because that is what my parents were and that is the way I was raised. At 5 or 12 I couldn't really care less and wasn't ready to consider what I wanted to BE. It was my senior year of college when I met a girl of a different faith that began my journey of exploring my faith and other faiths and what I beleived and why I believed what I believed. I stayed and remain a Baptist after doing some serious soul searching and exploration. That was what was right for me.

 

I do believe there is only one God and that there is only one way to Him. I do believe in an afterlife where you either spend eternity in His presence or NOT......which isn't such a good thing. Just like teaching my child table manners or not to steal, I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't teach him the faith of his Fathers. I see it as my responsibility. A day will come when he is older, wiser and more mature where he will question things and explore and decide for himself. Right now as a child, it is my responsibility to raise him by our family standards.

 

I accept the Bible as the word of God. The scriptures teach me that what I'm doing is right. I was going to post some scriptures, but I won't bore you with them. just know that I take them more seriously than the Oath and Law we consider non-negoiatable when working with the boys.

 

None of what I said is meant to be a judgement or condemnation on any of my Scouter brothers here. I just wanted to convey why what I consider a casual approach to "religious training" is something I have difficulty accepting. To each his own. I respect each person's right to chose their path. For me, I must point my son down what I consider the 'right" path until he is his own man and old enough to navigate on his own.

 

Bless each of you.

[Fuzzy Bear]

My Mother was wonderful. She had an agenda that we all obeyed. Keep the room, the house and our bodies clean on a regular basis. Actually she had several standards that we were supposed to know and follow. She was never strict unless we veered too much in any one direction and then she might get us with a fly swatter. We would run from her and as we got older, we just laughed. I am sure that it frustrated her a little but we still obeyed. Church was for Sunday and God didn't get in the way on the other days unless it was Christmas dinner and then I usually got tapped to speak to him. I kind of liked speaking to God because he was so open to anything I had/have to say.

 

One day I asked Mom where she got these rules of hers. I thought maybe they came from a little book that a person got when they became parents. I would kid her about it and she would just laugh. Underneath it all, I was serious because I wanted my copy early to bone up the rules, just in case.

 

What I didn't know was that people do all kinds of things as parents that are not based on any kind of structure. What I learned later in my profession is that parents do all kinds of things to kids and some are very unsavory. I also found out that children are like diamonds or great wealth to most of the world and to me. I discovered that raising children and proper structure is almost as much of a Mystery as the Spiritual realm itself.

 

I learned early on about preachers because I had my hat set on becoming one. I would follow them around and visit them and go to the Church, wherever I could come in contact with them. I studied the Bible and obtained the God and Country award in Scouts. I actually read the Bible through several times from start to finish. It really is a very good story but overly long and it could use some editing.

 

I understand the idea about the one way to God approach and I deeply appreciate the warning. The problem came from listening which is a skill I am fairly well versed. I listened carefully and took volumes of notes. I have studied gobs of books and still consult the Bible and speak to God daily. I have also been writing a paper about God based upon one word a preacher used in her sermon about six months ago. She spoke it once to our fellowship so I had to call her to ask her how it was spelled. My spelling skills stink sometimes.

 

What I found out is the reason behind why people speak about God and Mystery almost in the same breath. It has to do with the size of God. Since I have been to Philmont as many of you have, I compare God to the Tooth of Time. He is actually much bigger but I suppose the Tooth will have to do. On my way up and that is how I would explain it to anyone else going there. I came in from one direction and I met several others that took other trails and other directions up. We all arrived at the same place and a few even got there ahead of me. I know that I will see the one way people at the top so I want to extend an early greeting and ask them to get ready to move over. There will be quite an unexpected crowd. FB

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

Referring to the OT, packsaddle says, "That stuff was what we really wanted: sex, violence, betrayal, debauchery, death, destruction."

 

You've got to remember that the ancients didn't have HBO. They had to make do with oral history told around the campfire.

[SSScout]

Here I go. I think the water is deep enough to dive into...

 

 

1) I think I like BP's instruction about the choice of a boy's religion being mostly up to the parents, and the Scouters role being mainly to encourage that. The exact quote has been noted here before.

2) One's religion is composed of three main components, that which is taught by others (parents, Sabbath school, bull sessions at camp and at school, etc.) , that which is learned by ones self (reading the Bible/Quoran/Talmud/etc.) and that which is EXPERIENCED by ones self (see St Francis, et al). RELIGION is not necessarily FAITH.

3) It has been my experience (both from family and (sunday school teacher and Scout leader) that youngsters need some religious education, not only for the cultural background (yes, everyone should know about Noah and the Ark), but to know what their parents espouse. Youngsters need something to either ACCEPT (and add to) or REBEL against (and deny).To allow them the questionable "luxury" of wandering around spiritually until they might find a religious community to latch onto is ,I think, not serving our chidren well.

4) The original article noted that the author felt she had let her children down because they did not recognize AT ONCE the crucified Christ in sculpture. She felt she must find a way to "educate" her Cub in "A" belief. I reread the article, looking for a comment about finding a way to educate her Cub in "THEIR" belief. There's the problem. Like most of our society, we find it efficient to let someone else... fix our car, ...make our clothes, ...teach our children about God.

5) NO where in this article do they discuss finding a "good fit" for the PARENTS belief, only that the child be taught (something) about God, and the parents somehow find agreement in what the child is taught. And that is how one finds a church/temple/meeting/ashram to attend? This seems putting the cart before the horse to me.

YiS

[evmori]

Church was for Sunday and God didn't get in the way on the other days unless it was Christmas dinner and then I usually got tapped to speak to him.

 

God didn't get in the way? How would God get in the way? That kinda statement really chaps my shorts! Satan gets in the way! Not God!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

SSScout,

 

Well said. I think you expressed some points better than I did in my first post in this thread. The mom's approach seemed almost like a checklist of things for raising her child. Almost like those parents who see BSA as Babysitters of America.....but she was a Cub Leader according to the story. Children are sponges and soak up all sorts of stuff. Because they are around their parents so much, they soak up much of their parent's attitudes and habits....whether we want them to or not. The things that mom and dad make time for and treat important are the things that Billy and Susie will find important in life too. While packing them off to get a little education is never a bad thing, it does not mean they will view that particular education important if mom and dad never have. I appreciate parents wanting their children to be well rounded, but you have to have a certain level of involvment with them and the activity to drive the point home too. Good post!

[Fuzzy Bear]

Ed,

I hope you realize I was recounting my past but I want you to know what I believe today.

 

(this is from the Bible and Scouts can relate to it)

God spoke to Nathan in the night, saying "Go tell my servant David that the Lord is asking the question, What are you doing building me a house to live in? I have not lived in house since I brought my children out of Egypt, even unto this day, I have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle with you all...I went with you wherever you went and I have cut off all of your enemies...

 

God's house (Churches and Sundays) keeps God in out of the way even to this day. Churches and Sundays tend to allow people to believe that God is relegated to those times and places. This gives people clearance to lie, cheat, steal, make war, etc. in all other places and days. Men (in general) use these tactics against their enemies. God is much better at taking care of our problems but we prefer to do it ourselves.

 

God wants to walk with us every day and be as close to each of us as our own heart is close to each of us. This is God's way of keeping us clean and keeping us in his family.

 

FB

[Hunt]

I agree with SR540 Beaver on this--if the parents believe that their faith is actually true, they should raise their children in that faith--there will be other people later on to promote other beliefs.

 

I will say that children should also be educated about various religions--I don't think any child in the fifth grade should be ignorant of what a Bible is, for example.

 

Another thing I didn't like about the attitude in the article was the concept that choosing a "faith community" was all about what would be of the most benefit to you--sort of like choosing a health club--rather than about finding a place where you can serve and worship.