Does BSA have a monopoly?

[Hunt]

In another thread, there was a discussion of whether it is unfair for BSA to limit its membership, and the argument was made that it's unfair because BSA is the only place to obtain certain benefits. I'd like to probe this idea a bit. While it is true BSA has a Congressional Charter (like quite a few other groups, see Title 36, U.S. Code), about the only protection given to BSA in that charter is the following: "The corporation has the exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases the corporation adopts." Of course, any group can obtain similar protection through copyright and trademark. So while another group may not be able to call itself "Boy Scouts," they can adopt an essentially identical program with the same elements of outdoor, advancement, etc.

Of course, BSA does have many decades of goodwill and experience, and lasting relationships with other organizations. This makes it a challenge for a new group to make inroads--but I would point out that youth soccer has done this despite the previous dominance of youth baseball, basketball, and football. So you can certainly start your own private youth organization, you just can't call it Boy Scouts--just as you can start your own youth baseball league, but you can't call it "Little League."

[DanKroh]

Well, the BSA has felt comfortable enough that they have a monopoly that they have sued on that basis both the Spiral Scouts and an organization I think was called Lifescouts, but which I can't find anymore on the Internet. And these are the one's I know about, I wouldn't be surprised if there were others.

 

So yeah, start your own group...and be sued by the BSA.

 

Kudu, have you ever had this sort of thing happen with the Baden Powell Scouts?

[fgoodwin]

Hunt, its a question worth exploring -- what exactly does BSA offer that can't he had elsewhere?

 

Camping, hiking, nature & the outdoors? Outward Bound and the Sierra Club, for example, offer outdoor experiences that in some ways may equal or exceed what BSA can do.

 

Citizenship? Boys' State (American Legion) arguably does a much better job at that.

 

Health & fitness? YMCA and Little League clearly have that as a central mission.

 

Character development? Most schools now have "character connections" as an integral part of their curriculum, and of course, good character ought to be something that results from chuch and Sunday School attendance.

 

So, while I don't see a single organization that brings all of these components together like BSA does, it certainly isn't the case that BSA has a monopoly over any of them.

 

So, for those who complain, what is so magical about the name "Scouting" that you want to co-opt it? Create your own program, and come up with a name for it.

 

In fact, try calling it something along the lines of "Outward Bound" or "YMCA" and see if their lawyers come calling . . .

[ManassasEagle]

"So yeah, start your own group...and be sued by the BSA"

 

That is not a true statement no matter how many times you repeat it. Or maybe you're just being "Weasel-like" in your use of the ellipses (...). If you change your statement to "So yeah, start your own group, name it something containing "scouts", and be sued by the BSA", then you might be right. Your statement with just the ellipses is nothing if not "caginess", huh?

[DanKroh]

ManassasEagle, I'm not sure why using ellipses makes me weasel-like and cagy. Actually, I was only using them to provide a pause in the statement.

 

But I guess it is easier to call names than to ask about intent or for clarification.

[Eamonn]

There are times when I question what the BSA is about? and wonder where it is heading?

I wonder if we are in the business of selling stuff.

While selling stuff is OK and might be needed to help offset the cost of something, we don't seem as an organization to care if people buy it or not. Sure we push Boy's Life, but it would be nice if National (Not the local Council) made it available at no cost to Scoutreach Units. Maybe something could be done to help those who can't afford uniforms?

I as a rule don't sit around thinking about how my $10.00 membership fee is spent. Still even in these days of falling membership it seems that a lot of $10.00 membership fees get sent off and I'm not all together sure what or where my ten bucks is spent on? I haven't visited the National Office since it moved from New Jersey, so maybe all the membership fees are needed to ensure that whatever is being done does get done?

I find it a little annoying that just about anything you might need to run a LFL program is available for free on the web, but when we need something we have to buy the book. But I know that's just one of my pet peeves.

At times I think the best thing to do is just pay no attention to what is going on at the next level. The sad thing is that very often when we do this we are accused of not supporting those who serve at the next level.

The problem when we stop playing an active role in what is going on is that we don't know what is going on.Which very often is something that we might not like and could impact what we are trying to do.

We do seem to getting away from the idea of volunteers dealing with and working with volunteers, which is really hurting us. The more power or authority we allow the professionals to have the more they will take.

At the District level volunteers will turn to a DE before going through the volunteer staff. At the Council level volunteers will go to the SE, instead of calling the volunteers who are supposed to be in charge.

All of this is making it seem that we work for them and not the other way round.

I'm far happier having the members of the Executive Board ask the hard questions to the SE at a board meeting and get back to me with what the board said than phoning the SE and getting his opinion. After all he works for the board.

Eamonn.

 

[ManassasEagle]

DanKroh- oops, I forgot the smiley.

 

All I was trying to do was to point out the irony of the fact that the article (from the side that you apparently agree with) calls the BSA "weasel-like" and "cagy" for stating "we won't illegally discriminate" by comparing it to your statement that the BSA will sue you if you start your own group. Sticking the word "illegally" in there is "weaseling" on the part of the BSA similar to your not mentioning that you'll only get sued if you try to call your group "something scouts something".

[jmenand]

"So, for those who complain, what is so magical about the name "Scouting" that you want to co-opt it? Create your own program, and come up with a name for it. "

 

I'm willing to bet most people, including you, fgoodwin, already know the answer to this question. But since you asked, I will spell it out for you. All you have to do is look at religions which branch off and start their own, slightly different church. There are so many churches that are christian, and all of them have their own little differences. If one church owned the rights to say, the bible or the term "christian" or the core fundamental ideas of christianity, I'm willing to bet there would be a vocal outrage.

 

The scouting movement is a religion to many. Maybe you also go to chruch and when it comes to the afterlife, you're Christian, but when you believe in the message of scouting and the truth of it's ideals, it might as well be called a religion instead of a movement. That's pretty much all there is to it. People have a vested personal interest in "scouting."

 

The BSA wants to be a corporation AND a religion, even if it doesn't come out and say it in plain language. I wonder what would happen if someone tried to start an actual scouting religion? Or for that matter, the church of Microsoft or the Temple of McDonalds? Where do corporate rights on a name end when it comes to freedom of religion?

[stlscouter]

So is having a "monopoly" on the word "scout", "scouting" etc any different than "Kleenex" or "Jello"? Both have had to defend their BRAND NAME and are now very careful to say Kleenex brand tissue and Jello brand geletin. Try selling your operating system as DOS or Windows or naming your shoes nikee and see what happens. Is it truly a monopoly or is it just copyright, trademark and patent potection?

[Trevorum]

Yes, in the United States, BSA has an absolute monopoly on the youth movement started by Baden-Powell called "scouting". In many other countries, youth have alternatives when it comes to selecting a scouting organization. In Germany for example, there are several dozen scouting organizations, each with it's unique flavor.

 

In the United States there are several "scout-like" alternatives organizations for youth. In addition to those mentioned above, there are the Royal Rangers and Awana which are faith-specific. But these are not "scouting" and do not trace their program to Baden-Powell.

 

So, it the monopoly good or bad? That's tough. I am ambivalent here - I can see both sides.

 

(btw, let's not confuse the issue and start talking about Scouting as being a religion! Yes, many of us are "true believers" and "witness" the joys of Scouting every chance we get. However, Scouting lacks one of the three key elements of religion. It has (1) ritualized behaviors; it has (2) a code of moral behavior; but it lacks (3) a supernatural theology.)

 

[jmenand]

"So is having a "monopoly" on the word "scout", "scouting" etc any different than "Kleenex" or "Jello"? Both have had to defend their BRAND NAME and are now very careful to say Kleenex brand tissue and Jello brand geletin. Try selling your operating system as DOS or Windows or naming your shoes nikee and see what happens. Is it truly a monopoly or is it just copyright, trademark and patent potection? "

 

Are you seriously asking if the scouting movement is different than facial tissue and chilled sugar water?

 

Imagine a representative of the catholic church walking into an LDS church with a cease and desist order saying, "hey, we're just prtecting our BRAND NAME 'Jesus,' no hard feelings guys!"

 

If scouting is a business, it should be treated with the laws and regulations businesses are subjected to. I don't know very much about the legal differences between companies, religions, non-profits, etc., but it sounds like you know even less.

 

If the BSA wants to change to a corporation and start selling sneakers, there might be a parallel. Please see in my above post where I mention that the BSA seems to want to be both a company and a religion.

 

 

[jmenand]

Trevorum, there is no reason to "confuse the issue" by talking about scouting in theoretical terms. That is why I posed the question about someone starting an actual scouting religion. The BSA may lack "(3) a supernatural theology," but a new scouting religion might not. Some of the stuff in Wood Badge and the OA, for example, provides enough of a foundation for supernatural theology I'd think.

[jmenand]

Actually, on second thought, I'm not so sure the BSA lacks a spiritual theology. After all, it does require the recognition of a duty to God. It may be different from many religions, but there are a lot of religions out there, and many have fundamentally different beliefs about who/what created the universe- yet they still all qualify as religions. I don't see why the BSA is any different, and the scouting movement in general could certainly be a religion to a lot of people.

[SR540Beaver]

Our troop drove down to Irving this past Saturday and visted the National Scouting Museum. I seem to recall that Seton had the Woodcraft Indians and (Uncle) Dan Beard had the Sons of Daniel Boone. They were very similiar to the up and coming BSA and eventually merged with the BSA.

 

You can have an organization very much like the BSA without calling it "Scouts". To use the term Scouts as part of your organizations name is to try to ride the coattails of an organization that did all the heavy lifting and has legal claim to the name to boot.

 

You can call yourself the Adventure Rangers or the Extreme Outdoorsmen or the Monkey Treemen, just not Scouts.

[scoutldr]

Can you still buy a BSA motorcycle? I just looked at a group called Awana...church based, but similar to Scouting. Their uniforms are cheaper and they only have shirts!!! I found it interesting that their youngest group is called "Cubbies". Bring on the Lawyers!