Street Wrong To Evict Boy Scouts

[DanKroh]

Ed says "It doesn't matter if they have the only pool table. To play on their table you have to become a member and if your aren't a vet of a foreign war, you can't become a member."

 

Yes, Ed, and if people fell strongly that pool playing was something that everyone should have access to, I'd be very surpised if there wasn't a push to change that requirement (in our hypothetical world).

 

My point is, some people feel strongly that the skills, activities, and yes, even the values (when not viewed with a Christian bias) of scouting are valuable enough that they should be available to ALL boys. Furthermore, my counterpoint to Hunt's analogy was that there is no where else (contrary to what his analogy implied) that those skills, activities, and values can be had. There is no comparable, competing organization (at least in my area).

[evmori]

Dan,

So there is no other place those skills and values. Then the choice is simple. Start a similar group that teaches these skills & values. But if you don't meet the membership requirements of the BSA you can't join their group even if they are the only group in town.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[DanKroh]

"Start a similar group that teaches these skills & values."

 

Ah, a new record in speed for trotting out the "start your own group" pat response.

 

And be sued by the BSA for trying to muscle in on their goverment-granted monopoly? No thanks.

 

Not everyone has the money, time, and resources to start such an organization from scratch. So I guess your only remaining response to the atheist or homosexual youth (if their family is not rich enough to start a brand new youth organization or pay legal fees to defend themselves from the BSA if they do try) is "too bad"?

 

How very.

[evmori]

So I guess your only remaining response to the atheist or homosexual youth (if their family is not rich enough to start a brand new youth organization or pay legal fees to defend themselves from the BSA if they do try) is "too bad"?

 

If ya don't meet the membership requirements, yep.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[acco40]

Can one be moral and not believe in a divinity? Is homosexuality in and of itself immoral? I think the policy makers of the BSA have answered these questions as "no" and "yes" respectively.

 

This has upset many. For myself, I disagree with the stance the BSA has taken on these issues but have agreed to abide by them. Is that hypocritical? I'm a "dues paying member" my local Catholic church but not a member of the Catholic church? Is that hypocritical?

 

The United States Government charters the BSA by an act of Congress. The USG spends taxpayer dollars for the benefit of the BSA. Yet, our courts have deemed the BSA as a private organization. That decision still has me puzzled. Yet, in order to expel Dale and others, that is what the BSA successfully argued. Now, they are facing the consequences of that decision. Public institutions (public schools, military bases, etc.) should not sponsor private organizations.

 

Again, should public institutions "fund" private organizations? No. Do Catholic schools educate many non-Catholics? Yes! Do they provide "quasi-free" education to many inner city non-Catholic children? Yes! Do they save the public schools money by doing this? Yes! Should they get Government subsidies for their work? No.

 

Now to the original post. Raj Bhakta (author of article) is running for political office. I'll take a wild guess that he can't trace his descendants back to the Mayflower! So, I'm sure he is trying to put on an all-American front and supporting the BSA. Similar to John Dingell, congressman from my area, who has a huge Lebanese constituency, saying that he will not assess blame in the current mid-east conflict. Politicians go for mom and apple pie every time.

 

I'm a pragmatist. Our unit is sponsored by an Episcopal Church. None of the Scouts are members of that church. They provide a meeting place for us and don't really interface with us at all. We have participated in many of their service projects in the past and will continue to do so. By the way, the Episcopal church is struggling with homosexual issues right now too. Now, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. The BSA program has many fine qualities and individuals and I am pleased with the effect the program has had on my family. Does it have some warts? Yes. I'm not ready to sacrifice the benefits my family gets, and the benefits I think Scouting gets from my family if I may be so arrogant to say, because of some issues with public schools funding units. In our area, budget crunches have forced the public schools to charge all organizations for use of their facility. As a unit commissioner, I'm aware of a few schools that still charter units and we are working to rectify that situation but as Hunt stated in reality that is not going to effect the program on the ground. As Merlyn stated, it does make a big difference in principle and possibly in a dollar sense by exposing themselves to lawsuits. But, kind of like having In God We Trust on our coins and bills - I don't think that changes anyones religious beliefs but it is a serious matter in principle for some.

 

I agree with Trevorum, the BSA will change - its just a matter of when.

 

Sorry for the discombobulated ranting. Just my two cents worth.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[fgoodwin]

Nick, I'm glad you feel the Scout Law is one of the "timeless values" (to borrow a phrase) that should not be subject to change with the vagaries of society and culture.

 

But why limit it to the Scout Law? Do you agree that the Scout Oath should also not be subject to change? I don't see how you could support the Scout Oath as currently written ("Duty to God") and still support the inclusion of professed atheists?

 

Or are you suggesting that the Scout Oath be changed? Because if that's your position, then I have to ask about the inconsistency in how you would treat the the Scout Law (unchanged) vs. the Scout Oath (subject to change)?

[SaintCad]

Ed, you said:

 

Fred makes an excellent point. No court has ever ruled that a public school chartering a BSA unit was unconstitutional. The BSA is allowed to decided who can be a member. So can the football team and the band and the swimming team and the basketball team! But the BSA is being attacked for discriminating! If you can't play football or and instrument or swim or play basketball you can't be on those teams! And they are, like a BSA unit charted by a public school, owned by the school. How come no one is suing them for discrimination?

 

 

What do you not understand about "protected classes" in regards to illegal discrimination. It's been talked about in other threads.

[evmori]

SaintCad,

The BSA doesn't discriminate illegally. Moot point.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[GernBlansten]

Ed, you are correct. Kinda.

In all states it is illegal to discriminate against someone for religious beliefs in employment, housing and business transactions. In some states its illegal to do the same against homosexuals.

But BSA is a private org and doesn't have to follow those rules for membership. BSA could legally discriminate against blacks or muslims if it wanted to in that regard.

If BSA discriminated against blacks, would it be understandable that a city mayor (especially a black one) might want to retract a lease with that organization?

[SaintCad]

From Ed:

If you can't play football or and instrument or swim or play basketball you can't be on those teams! And they are, like a BSA unit charted by a public school, owned by the school. How come no one is suing them for discrimination?

 

From SaintCad

What do you not understand about "protected classes" in regards to illegal discrimination. It's been talked about in other threads.

 

From Ed

SaintCad,[t]he BSA doesn't discriminate illegally. Moot point.

 

 

I'll try to explain this (as many other had before) to you. The issue is not discrimination by the BSA, but rather a public school qua an arm of the state government supporting an organization that discriminates AGAINST A PROTECTED CLASS viz. atheists. Being too short, uncoordinated, not able to speak French and yes sexual orientation are not protected and schools can legally discriminate against them all they want.

 

Let me give you an example: I'm in high school and I don't make the team because I'm short and can't make a basket from more than 2 feet away - perfectly legal. I'm in high school and I don't make the team because I'm white and the coach believes that black players make better basketball players - absolutely illegal and worthy of a lawsuit.

 

You may be interested that the Ninth Circuit ruled that barring a student with a disability using a wheelchair was discrimination and forced the school to allow her to be on the team. I'll hunt up a cite soon.

 

 

 

[SaintCad]

It was Maryland and not California

http://www.theviewnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=7437&paper=1&cat=193

[evmori]

SaintCad,

 

The BSA doesn't discriminate illegally. Therefore if a public school is the chartering organization for a BSA unit, they are not supporting illegal discrimination of a protected class since the BSA doesn't discriminate illegally.

 

Moot point.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SaintCad]

From Ed:

The BSA doesn't discriminate illegally. Therefore if a public school is the chartering organization for a BSA unit, they are not supporting illegal discrimination of a protected class since the BSA doesn't discriminate illegally.

 

Do you purposefully miss the point or do you just not read what other people say. It doesn't matter if BSA's discrimintory policies are legal or illegal. Let me sum it up for you:

Does BSA discriminate against atheists? Yes

Is it legal for BSA discriminate against atheists? Yes

Is it legal for a school to discriminate against atheists? No

Therefore is it legal for a school to support or charter an organization that discriminates (albeit legally) against atheists? In this day and age, probably not.

 

So you see, no one is arguing whether or not the BSA can discriminate, but rather can a school legal support a group that discriminates?

 

 

[evmori]

Does BSA discriminate against atheists? Yes

Is it legal for BSA discriminate against atheists? Yes

Is it legal for a school to discriminate against atheists? No

Therefore is it legal for a school to support or charter an organization that discriminates (albeit legally) against atheists? In this day and age, probably not.

 

Probably not?

 

If the school is chartering a BSA unit what are they doing that is illegal?

 

And, yeah SaintCad, I read what you posted. Did you miss my point?

 

Need a 3 for a full boat!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SaintCad]

From Ed: If the school is chartering a BSA unit what are they doing that is illegal?

 

Probably nothing, but a Judge may interpret chartering the Pack as making the Pack a school organization (especially if all of the boys in the pack are also in the school). You and I may not agree with this interpretation, but there are a lot of judicial interpretation we may not agree with. More likely, it would be probably found illegal for the Pack to recruit on school grounds.

 

 

 

From Ed: And, yeah SaintCad, I read what you posted. Did you miss my point?

 

Not at all, your point that BSA discrimination is legal.

However, not everybody can discriminate against atheists (e.g. schools, a municipal government). The question is, how close does the relationship between a school and BSA have to be for the BSA's legal discrimination is the school's illegal discrimination? As far as I know, this is still an unanswered question.