Street Wrong To Evict Boy Scouts

[Hunt]

"I don't agree, Hunt, with public schools being one of the largest chartering partners back in the 1990s, the BSA was obviously acting like a public accommodation. The BSA is now, finally, being forced to act like a real private organization, which does not resemble their actions around the time of the Dale litigation. Real private organizations don't have public schools running their "private" clubs."

 

What you don't seem to get, Merlyn, is that in the real world, virtually none of those schools "ran" the private club. They provided no funds, no oversight, no staffing, and no services other than a place to meet, which they also provided to other groups that they didn't charter. All they really provided was a signature on a piece of paper, and thus for most of those units the only change that is happening is that a different signature will appear on that piece of paper. Virtually nobody in the school or in the scout unit likely even understood the distinction between the school "chartering" the unit and the school allowing some other group to meet there. The Cub Scout pack was no more a public accomodation in any real sense than any other private group that was meeting in the school. Getting schools to stop chartering scout units will save the public very little money, if any. (It may even result in net costs, if scout units stop putting up flagpoles and doing other projects around public schools.) In sum, I can see the point in the abstract that public schools shouldn't charter units, but the practical impact of doing something about it is so minimal that I just can't see why it would be a priority for anybody when there are much greater injustices that actually have an impact. As I said before, it's probably counterproductive if your real goal is to get BSA to change its membership policies, because it sends more units to chartering organizations likely to support those policies.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hunt writes:

What you don't seem to get, Merlyn, is that in the real world, virtually none of those schools "ran" the private club. They provided no funds, no oversight, no staffing, and no services other than a place to meet, which they also provided to other groups that they didn't charter.

 

What you don't seem to get, Hunt, is that legally, it was the school's youth group.

[molscouter]

"Now, if it will make you feel better, I *do* intend to look for plaintiffs for any remaining BSA units chartered to government entities, and lawsuits would likely be filed against both the school and the BSA."

 

You've got time to shop for plaintiffs but not time or desire to clean up your own list. Amazing.

 

[BrentAllen]

Merlyn,

One final question, which for me, sums up the importance and depth of this situation, of changing the signature on the recharter application from the principal to the PTA president.

 

 

How many nits could a nitpick pick, if a nitpick could pick nits?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

molscouter, there's no reason to "clean up" a list that's no longer used and long out of date. I've generated a new list since then, and I'll generate another one later on. That list was to show (back in 2004-2005) how many government agencies were unlawfully chartering BSA units.

 

Brent, the difference is that a public school that charters a pack is breaking the law. That isn't a "nitpick". And if it's such a trivial change, why was your pack chartered by a public school for years after the Dale decision?

[BrentAllen]

"And if it's such a trivial change, why was your pack chartered by a public school for years after the Dale decision?"

 

Because, again, it wasn't an issue! No one asked us to change our charter! Believe me when I say there was no one, not a single person, complaining about our public school charter. Where are all these people upset about their rights being violated??

 

When the BSA asked us to change, we did. Do you really think everyone followed the Dale decision, or even knows about it now? If I asked the parents in our Pack to describe the Dale decision, I don't think a single one would know what I'm talking about!

 

How many times do we have to say this - nobody here sees this as being of any importance at all! No one saw the Pack charter as being a case of religious discrimination - not in the Pack, not in the school administration, not in the PTA, not in the school body! That is what you cannot seem to understand. You are knocking yourself out for such a small group, it is really pretty sad.

The Supreme Court has not ruled the school charters are a violation of the constitution; it is your opinion and that of the ACLU. The BSA agreed to conform because it was the cheaper way out. Again, instead of handing the recharter form to the school principal sitting to the left of me, I hand it to the PTA president, who is sitting on my right. It is such a small issue, it is not worth going to court to fight! Which is the smarter course of action - spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight the issue in court, or asking Packs to get a different signature on their recharter form? Anyone, anyone?

 

This case is the crown jewel of nitpicking!!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

BrentAllen writes:

Because, again, it wasn't an issue! No one asked us to change our charter!

 

And as soon as you rejected an atheist kid, or a kid from an atheist family, you would have found out quite quickly how much of an issue it could be.

 

Do you really think everyone followed the Dale decision, or even knows about it now?

 

No. Do you think every parent who applies knows that atheists can't join?

 

No one saw the Pack charter as being a case of religious discrimination - not in the Pack, not in the school administration, not in the PTA, not in the school body!

 

But you yourself admitted that you would reject an atheist applicant, which IS religious discrimination. You simply had no opportunity; that doesn't change the fact that your school was unlawfully sponsoring a discriminatory club.

 

That is what you cannot seem to understand. You are knocking yourself out for such a small group, it is really pretty sad.

 

Ah, and here it is. Groups that are "small" enough can have their civil rights ignored.

[SR540Beaver]

"Do you think every parent who applies knows that atheists can't join?"

 

Yes, considering they read and sign the application form that states:

 

"Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle

 

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership."

[MarkS]

I'm going to have to agree with Merlyn that the issue of scout units being chartered by public schools is more than a nitpick. It is a big deal. If the courts have decided that it is unconstitional for a public school to be the chartered organization of a scout unit, then as scouts and scouters we have a duty to our country to obey that law.

 

However, we need to think terms of the path forward and not dwell on the past. Because units only update their charters once a year, the scout units tend to be run by parent volunteers with a high turnover rate, and public schools and their officials tend to not be actively involved in the operation of the scout unit, some units will likely have missed the need to update their charters the first time after the policy change. It's going to take some time to update all of the affected charters. Since the BSA started taking action to have units pull charters from public schools around March of 2005 when the ACLU vowed to take legal action against public schools and other taxpayer-funded governmental agencies that chartered scout units, it make take until next March before this is all straightened out.

 

Whether the school or PTA is the chartered organization doesn't matter as much as whether scout units have the same access to public school facilities as any other student or community groups that are permitted to have access. BSA members still pay taxes to support those facilities.

 

I didn't even know my unit was not chartered by the school until I completed the recharter paperwork for the unit.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[fgoodwin]

MarkS writes:If the courts have decided that it is unconstitional for a public school to be the chartered organization of a scout unit, then as scouts and scouters we have a duty to our country to obey that law."If" . . . "Then"

 

The problem with your "if-then" is that no court has ever ruled that it is unconstitutional for schools to charter scout units.

 

[evmori]

Let's see. A Scout unit in a public school is the school's youth group. Never heard that one before. I wonder if public schools consider BSA units their youth group? Kinda doubt it.

 

Fred makes an excellent point. No court has ever ruled that a public school chartering a BSA unit was unconstitutional. The BSA is allowed to decided who can be a member. So can the football team and the band and the swimming team and the basketball team! But the BSA is being attacked for discriminating! If you can't play football or and instrument or swim or play basketball you can't be on those teams! And they are, like a BSA unit charted by a public school, owned by the school. How come no one is suing them for discrimination?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[stlscouter]

Ed

You know the only reason that the ACLU (the ACLU is for civil liberties like the American Cancer Society is for Cancer)is $$$$$$ , after any case they file for lawyers fees and even if the case is about a 1928 violation they will ask for 2006 dollars.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

A Scout unit in a public school is the school's youth group.

 

No Ed, learn to read for comprehension. A scout unit CHARTERED by a public school is the school's youth group. That's what the BSA says:

http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-507.html

 

Never heard that one before. I wonder if public schools consider BSA units their youth group? Kinda doubt it.

 

Ed, if a BSA unit chartered to a public school isn't the school's youth group, whose is it?

 

No court has ever ruled that a public school chartering a BSA unit was unconstitutional.

 

Ed, I'd like to see a court case, but whenever one even gets remotely close, the school doesn't even try to defend it. You need to find a public school reckless enough to try and defend practicing religious discrimination. The BSA won't even try to defend this; as you'll recall, they agreed to stop issuing charters to public schools and other government entities.

 

[stlscouter]

So even if there is merely a percievd violation it is up to the likes of Merlyn and and the ACLU to apply economic blackmail for thier own gain; and the greater population suffers for it.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

stlscouter, you may not have noticed, but the only lawsuit filed in this particular case is from the Boy Scouts, trying once again to have their cake and eat it too, by insisting the city has to give them free rent.

 

And no, a government agency running a "no atheists allowed" youth group isn't just a "perceived" violation. In your own St. Louis area, the St. Louis special school district had to drop an in-school scouting program because of the BSA's discrimination.