If gays marry, churches could suffer

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"It's missing reproducibility..."

Go "experiment" for yourself. Have you?

 

Reproducibility between different experimenters. People come to various, mutually exclusive results.

 

"... and peer review..."

I'd say there plenty of people who criticize this and who have commented on such things over the past few millenia. You may or may not believe yourself to be my peer.

 

Well, if you want to call that peer review, then it does have peer review -- it fails it, but it has it.

 

"...results don't converge since different people end up finding different gods, and different numbers of gods."

I can only report my own experience -- anything else in this regard is hearsay. I guess we can only say that the experiment, performed time and time again for thousands of years by various people, needs more looking into.

 

I'd agree enough with that, though I'd just say the results are inconclusive.

 

So Merlyn.. Can some atheists take the meaning of "Love" and say that it is a ruling and leading power in the universe and are grateful if Love favors and bless them during their life?

 

I suppose some could, but you seem to be personifying "love"; I'd guess most atheists would say love is an emotion and doesn't rule, isn't a power, and doesn't favor or bless people in the literal sense.

 

You can also turn the question around and ask how many people believe in a god that doesn't meet all these qualifications; I'm sure some deists, for example, would say their god doesn't "rule" or "favor or bless" people, since deism usually implies a god that doesn't interfere.

[moosetracker]

merlyn writes : You can also turn the question around and ask how many people believe in a god that doesn't meet all these qualifications; I'm sure some deists, for example, would say their god doesn't "rule" or "favor or bless" people, since deism usually implies a god that doesn't interfere.

 

I agree with you there, and even stated so, after reading that statement, again for the first time in about 15, and years and years of discussing it, with no one ever bringing up that piece of the statement since. It is solely there to ban the atheists, because National seems content to ignore it themselves to allow in all religions that obviously do not conform to that statement.

 

It is solely there to only drag out and use as a reason to deny an atheist comes along believing loosely in the same belief that a Hindu person believes in, but wishes to define himself an atheists, because there are other things of the Hindu faith foreign to him.

 

I still say atheists would be out the door as quickly as the enter it, if they cannot uphold other parts of the Scout law, Kind, friendly, reverent (per the dictionary) which they would not be upholding if they entered to deny & protest other peoples beliefs and faiths.. Could not stand in silence or go for a walk if the Troop chooses to do an interfaith prayer before dinner, trys to remove the word God because they can't understand difference between "God" vs god..

 

But, if they removed that phrase from the DRP, and kept the rest with the understanding that God is "something Greater then Self" then they would put their rules in line with all of the religions that they have accepted into the BSA, and it would then also not bar the atheist who could understand the difference between God vs god...

 

As for personifying "love" maybe, maybe not.. I have heard that "Love makes the world go round".. I have also heard "Money makes the world go round".. but I don't think Love or money is personifyied, in the statement.. You just need to get "Love" to make the universe go round..

[KC9DDI]

and it would then also not bar the atheist who could understand the difference between God vs god

 

Moose - I'm generally agreeing with what you're saying, but... I'm a Christian and I still have no idea what you mean regarding the "God vs god" issue.

 

Could you try to clarify it for me? Preferably without attaching non-standard meanings to capitalization?

[moosetracker]

KC9DDI Moose - I'm generally agreeing with what you're saying, but... I'm a Christian and I still have no idea what you mean regarding the "God vs god" issue.

 

Actually I was not the one to explain this on this thread originally.. It was skeptic.. I knew of it simply in that BSA accepts you have a faith if you can believe in anything Greater then self, he defined it very well on this thread and defined the difference of God vs god.. I understood it quickly, Merlyn & you had a hard time with the concept.

 

Here are some of the back passages on it..

Skeptic - Please do not forget that in the Scouting context, none of this is connected, except as personal beliefs of a particular scouter. ALL religious ideas are acceptable, as long as they admit something greater than ourselves; and that direction is determined at the family and personal levels. So, the Bible is only one of the many possible sacred texts that may or may not apply to this discussion.

 

I truly do not get how so many continue to not fully understand this very important aspect of Scouting. Yes, a unit sponsored by a specific church or other religious institution may have special requirements for their members; but the members can still choose to accept or not. They may decide to go elsewhere if they feel uncomfortable with their unit; but the idea of God, in the broad, more ephemeral definition, is a personal decision, period.

 

And, if one is not able to admit some form of personal belief beyond self, then he should look outside of the Scouting program. It is a choice

 

Skeptic - Merlyn; You ARE NOT a Scouter, so whatever you do or do not believe makes no difference in this context. You have a complete right to your "non-belief". It just has no place within the Scouting program. Your problem, and many others', is that somehow God, and god have become confused. A God is a specific entity in which someone believes, something greater than self, normally a spiritual idea with certain higher power perhaps, or not; while gods are generic.

 

A god or gods is a belief in a physical or spiritual being (either we are made in the image of or not) that you believe has supreme power over you, your world, your universe..

 

A God is something greater then yourself, but is not a physical being.. It is the belief that there is something greater then ourselves .. Something we have no control over.. (some on this thread think self means personal self, while I cling to self as in mankind (but seem to be the only one)..) Any way God does not have to be a physical or spiritual being, it does not even need to have conscious thought.. Like those who believe in rocks and trees and the wind or the sun..

 

Alot of us interchange the word God & god because being Christian our God is called God not Zeus or Buddah(and we even capitalize it, rather then smaller case it.).. So your confusion is probably because you are a Christian.. I don't know why Merlyn is confused though..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[KC9DDI]

moose - OK, I think I'm getting there. Part of my confusion stems from the fact that your definitions of "God vs god" aren't consistent with any other definition that I've ever heard, religious or secular. I'm also not positive that it's consistent with Skeptic's definition, though I think his explanation is a bit more consistent with what I've heard in other settings. I get the notion that the BSA doesn't necessarily mean the "Catholic God" or the "Jewish God" when they use the word "God" in the DRP and other texts. So I think there's clearer ways to make that distinction other than relying on whether or not the "G" is capitalized.

 

So help me understand. God is not a physical being, but god can be? So is a rock God or god? Is Yahweh, based on the typical Judeo-Christian understanding, God or god? Are my "beliefs" Gods or gods?

 

And, how exactly, can the word "self" mean something other than yourself? If you want to express the idea of "humanity," wouldn't it be clearer just to say "humanity?"

[moosetracker]

True it is my interpretation of Skeptics meaning.. But the way I take it

 

If you believe in objects as superior to self, then unless you believe that these objects can take on a life with a conscious, then it is a God, but not a god..

 

The Greek gods Zeus, Poseidon, Athena etc are gods.. Because they are a being with a conscious that can rule over you. So are Buddah, Yahweh and our christian God..

 

I do always say "something greater then self" and then state "self" is mankind..

 

Skeptic wrote it as "ALL religious ideas are acceptable, as long as they admit something greater than OURselves" maybe hearing other people say OURselves is where I got the concept of it meaning all humans -or- mankind..

 

Here are some other passages I pulled by surfing...

A belief in the spiritual aspect of human beings and a belief in a spiritual power greater than ourselves is fundamental to Membership of the Scout Movement.

 

Every Boy Scout and adult leader must attest to that belief on an application in order to join. It can be part of subscribing to a structured religion such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam or Hinduism or a more amorphous faith in some presence greater than ourselves, Farmer explained.

 

It can be part of subscribing to a structured religionor a more amorphous faith in some presence greater than ourselves.

 

I don't know, you all can still see "self" as being just yourself.. I can't help but pull out of these passages that it does not mean I can make my husband my God, simply because I promised to love, honor, and... (well I didn't say obey, I forget what I said.. Hmmm.. now that means I can't do what I promised.. OH WELL.. Poor Hubby..)

[drmbear]

If God means something "greater than selves" then does that mean belief in nature, the universe, the world, the magnitude of all that is around us, equates to God. Works for me...

[moosetracker]

Exactly.. it could be as simple as belief in nature, the universe, the world, the magnitude of all that is around us, equates to God. if you do not believe in a god.. Or it could mean a belief in a god or gods if you do have a belief in him/them..