Questions about homosexuality in BSA

[campcrafter]

WOW - lets talk about this some more! I never tire of this topic

 

Actually I seldom read these and never join. However I do have one question this time - Has this topic ever come up in your daily scouting life in your unit? It hasn't for me - not even been discussed in any Scout group I was involved in. May come up now that my den has crossed over to Boy Socuts - don't know.

 

Thanks Ed - I'll have some Blue Bell Dutch Chocolate , please.

 

See ya'll in another thread!

CC

[evmori]

Flavor of the day is Butter Pecan with whipped creme & butterscotch sauce! Sprinkles are extra!

 

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

Campcrafter,

 

No, the subject has never come up in any converations I've had within my scouting world. The subject belongs to the activists who want to make their lifestyle more accpeted in public life and push it in every venue they can.

 

As stated before, I have nothing against homosexuals. My sister is a lesbian and my best friend is a gay pastor. They did not ask to be the way they are. They are entitled to live a happy life as much as anyone else. That being said, while being gay is "normal" for them, it is not the "norm". Society in general always accepts the "norm" and rejects the abnormal. A norm is a norm because it is how things are for the VAST majority of society. Obviously, in many societies and their religions, there are also moral implications concerning homosexuality.

 

The traditional values, folkways, mores, ethics, laws, etc. of virtually every major society since recorded history has rejected homosexuality. BSA reflects that same traditional value.

[Hunt]

When my son was in Cubs, several families, including a den leader, left the Pack when the Dale decision came out and BSA's position was publicized. So yes, it does come up.

 

Eamonn's analysis, I think, is most likely correct: BSA's position is what it is because it is the position of the largest and/or most influential of BSA's chartering partners. BSA won't change its position unless they do.

[DanKroh]

"Has this topic ever come up in your daily scouting life in your unit?"

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "come up". Have I ever witnessed a gay scout or scouter being kicked out? No, not that I know of, but then again, I wouldn't always expect that kind of reason for leaving the troop to filter down to everyone.

 

Have I ever known a scout or scouter who voluntarily left because he came to the realization that he was gay? Yes, my 16 y.o. nephew, when he was a Life scout and well on his way to Eagle. Again, there may be others, as I am not privy to the private reasons why every boy or leader decides to leave scouting.

 

Have I ever had a discussion about the policy in a scouting context? Oh, yes. I have had new parents ask about the policy, and I know of at least two families with heterosexual parents who have declined to join because of the policy.

 

Of course, if you define everyone who has an interest in changing the policy as a "gay activist", then yes, it is only brought up by "gay activists". Perhaps the issue might come up more if people were not concerned about retaliation for bringing it up.

 

Or perhaps asking why the topic is not more of an issue in our daily scouting life is like asking why there aren't more vegetarian dishes served at a cattleman's association cookout. Since gays are "not allowed", and everyone in scouting presumably knows about that policy, I wouldn't expect the topic to come up much, especially if the majority of the leadership belongs to conservative Christian churches. Those in scouting who ARE gay are so deep in the closet from fear of exposure that I can't ever imagine them participating in a discussion of the topic, even if someone else brought it up.

 

LongHaul, the flaw with your analogy is that when the Roman Catholic troop rejected non-RC members, there were other troops to join. If units can set their own membership standards concerning other criteria, why can't they decide on this one, as well?

[SaintCad]

"Sounds like someone wants to pick a fight! I ain't gonna pick back! Ya won't get anywhere cause this poster has an agenda & nothing else!"

 

I don't know who this was direct to, but as the OP I'll assume you meant me.

 

I don't have an agenda, I merely want to know the reasoning behind this BSA policy. To me this policy was hypocritical - we don't favor one religion over another but national policy is based on Judeo-Christian values? Apparently BSA says that this is not the case so I'm willing to retract my judgement of hypocrasy.

 

Instead they claim that it is about family values. OK, I did not know that (that's why I asked), so do I as a divorced Den Leader need to worry that I will be kicked out of Cub Scouting since divorce does not fit in with "traditional family values"? Is there a list of "family values" that the National Council uses to determine who fits in and who doesn't? Would a parent who has a child out of wedlock be barred from scouting?

 

Actually, I think Eamonn has it right. It has nothing to do with Duty to God or "Family Values". Instead it is all about pragmatics of losing chartering partners. I have a personal opinion on this (which I will keep to myself), but couldn't this be done at a Pack/Troop level? There are chartering partners that form all Muslim, all Jewish, etc. Packs/Troops. Why not have a national policy that opens up scouting to homosexual but allow all heterosexual Packs/Troops? If the answer is that the chartering partners will leave unless BSA implements THEIR policies at a national level, then is BSA truly independent?

[scoutingagain]

"Is there a list of "family values" that the National Council uses to determine who fits in and who doesn't?"

 

Yes there is a list. It is a very short one. There are only two criteria the National office sets that restricts membership.

 

1. Sexual Orientation, "Avowed" homosexuals are not eligible for membership as adult leaders.

 

2. Specific Religious Beliefs, or lack thereof. Anyone who is not willing to sign a membership application and abide by the Declaration of Religious Principles is not eligible for membership.

 

Nearly all other membership criteria may be set by the local chartering organization. They may add additional restrictions to members of thier unit based on say religion or gender, but not race. They also are not allowed to open membership to those excluded by the National organization. It is concievable a unit sponsored by a Catholic Church could limit adult membership to only those who qualify as members of the Church, thereby restricting membership of those who have been divorced.

 

If reality, most CO's sponsor units that have open membership policies other than the restrictions placed by the National office. Of course, membership is still subject to background checks, recommendations, etc. Convicted criminals, are not likely to be approved as leaders, even if they are straight and believe in God.

 

SA

 

[OldGreyEagle]

SaintCad, its hard to compose a thoughtful and complete answer to someone who asks a quesition about a policy and then in the midst of the question starts to demean, ridicule and otherwise berate the policy. I already know you don't really want an answer you just want to pick a fight with forum members who agree with the policy.

 

And I was the poster who said that sexuality has no place in Boy Scouts. I would react the same way to a scout boasting about sexual exploits with the SPLs sister as I would with the SPL. That BSA has no place for those types of shenanigans.

 

IMO, The avowed homosexuality leader is banned because a large segment of the Chartering Organizations beleive that Homosexuality is a negative charactor trait and its Chartering Organizations that pretty much call the shots in the BSA (LDS/Catholic Church) and would take their ball and go home if gays were allowed (or at the very least not renew the charter of any units)

 

[DanKroh]

"The avowed homosexual[ity] leader is banned..."

 

Just out of curiosity, is there such a thing as a non-avowed homosexual? And would such a person (if he/she existed) be acceptable to the BSA? And if so, what quality does a non-avowed homosexual possess that an avowed homosexual does not that makes them more acceptable?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hunt writes:

Eamonn's analysis, I think, is most likely correct: BSA's position is what it is because it is the position of the largest and/or most influential of BSA's chartering partners. BSA won't change its position unless they do.

 

Most influential, but not largest. The largest charter partner used to be public schools, and since they can't legally discriminate on the basis of religion (and in many states, sexual orientation), the BSA should have taken that into account, but they apparently didn't bother.

[evmori]

No ice cream for Merlyn!

[Trevorum]

Dan,

 

That was what "the closet" was all about. In years past, many homosexual persons, men and women, would allow themselves to be pressured by society into conforming to gender role expectations. These people would marry and have children despite their sexual orientation. Some would acknowledge their difference from the norm and strive mightily to fit into social patterns. Others would not understand their innate difference and would be terribly tormented because of their "sinful" thoughts. It was generally only the urbane sophisticates, such as Oscar Wilde, who understood social dynamics enough to afford to act on thier biology, albeit often with disasterous consequences. Today, homosexuality is widely (if not not universally) accepted and being "avowed" is often taken for granted.

[funscout]

One time at a Cub Scout Round Up, I did have a parent ask me if Gays were allowed in scouts. She was very nice about it, but said that she wouldn't sign up her son if Gays were allowed. I won't even tell you how the two male leaders with me "played" that up, after the mom and son had left the building!

 

I won't add any more discussion because I'm going to go get a turtle sundae.

[DanKroh]

Trev,

 

I suspected that's what was meant, except that I have read of cases where scout leaders who were deep in the closet were exposed by someone else, and were expelled from the BSA. So it seems that "being in the closet" is not sufficient to keep one from being defined as "avowed".

 

I have to tell you, I can't say that being in complete denial about a basic defining characteristic (sexuality) is something that I would value in a leader. People who try to repress their sexuality almost universally exihibit severe psychological distress, most often manifesting as depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. Any psychologist who follows APA guidelines of standard of care will NEVER advocate to a homosexual to try to repress their sexuality, because to do so is so psychologically detrimental.

 

I know, because I treat many of them on a weekly basis. I would be happy to no longer need to provide services to that portion of my clients.

[Trevorum]

Dan,

I apologize - I certainly didn't mean to tell you your business! I guesss I had forgotten that you had previously mentioned your professional expertise in this arena.