Group Protests Boy Scouts Exclusionary Policies

[Fuzzy Bear]

As I see it, Scouting belongs in the churches and civic clubs and not in the schools or public supported institutions. Religion belongs in the Churches and the daily life of the individual and should not be watered down or disturbed by school activities. Prayer belongs in the individual's private daily meditations and should not be disturbed by school activities or any other activity. Whenever religion becomes a public activity, it ceases to be what it was intended for and that is for the individual and that person's God. Whenever the State legislates religion, then religion ceases to be a free expression of the individuals response toward their God. Scouting is not a religion or a religious organization but its policies about God exclude those who do not accept God. Scouting should be seen in the most favorable light and that is to not force in any way, any person to accept God for any other reason than a free choice. That choice can best be made in the Churches and the civic clubs that have a vested interest about their religion and that supports their God fully. To do otherwise is to leave religion open to the mandates of the state and I find that to be less than what God has to offer and less than what Scouting has to offer. FB

[Hunt]

I'm glad that Merlyn makes it clear that he doesn't object to BSA excluding atheists, now that BSA has agreed to move out of the public schools. My point is that the efforts to push BSA out of the public schools probably did not help those who would like to persuade BSA to change its membership requirements. I've always said that those efforts were legally correct--in fact, the schools can't sponsor an organization that limits membership on religious grounds--I just think the tactic was shortsighted. The Dale case is an even more obvious case--although nobody could have stopped Dale, perhaps, he was supported by the ACLU, which also wrote an amicus brief--which, in my estimation, turned out to be a tactical error. It should have been clear to the lawyers for Dale and the ACLU that the Supreme Court was never going to rule that a private organization couldn't set its own membership requirements--really, the ACLU should have been on the other side of the case--it should have opposed the twisting of a public accomodations law to try to infringe on the right of free association. The result was a resounding loss, with BSA now being able to point to the Supreme Court having affirmed its right to exclude gay leaders. I think that was a setback for groups like Scouting for All, if their goal is to persuade BSA to change.

[evmori]

Religion belongs in the Churches and the daily life of the individual and should not be watered down or disturbed by school activities.

 

Religion should not be relegated to only churches. Religion is part of society and one of our freedoms.

 

Prayer belongs in the individual's private daily meditations and should not be disturbed by school activities or any other activity.

 

Prayer can be private or corporate.

 

Whenever religion becomes a public activity, it ceases to be what it was intended for and that is for the individual and that person's God.

 

Your opinion, not a fact. Religion is a very public activity.

 

The BSA is a private organization that has religious membership requirements. That doesn't make it a religious organization. Public schools should be allowed to charter BSA units.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hunt, I didn't say I don't object to the BSA's policies if they pull out of schools (which they haven't completely done, by the way); I certainly object to the way the BSA denegrates atheists. I also think the ACLU was on the right side, due almost entirely to the previous decades where public schools were one of the largest chartering partners for BSA units, as the BSA obviously was ACTING like a public accommodation for well over half a century.

[Eagledad]

Good Morning All

 

>>Religion belongs in the Churches and the daily life of the individual and should not be watered down or disturbed by school activities.

[Bobanon]

Fuzzy Bear thanks for pointing out the obvious and providing sage advice:

 

"Religion belongs in the Churches and the daily life of the individual and should not be watered down or disturbed by school activities. Prayer belongs in the individual's private daily meditations and should not be disturbed by school activities or any other activity."

 

Too many Christians seem to have forgotten Jesus teaching about public prayer. evmori would be well served to go and read Matthew 6:5 for you apparently have not read that one.

 

Fuzzy Bear you also pointed out this:

"Scouting is not a religion or a religious organization but its policies about God exclude those who do not accept God." While this is true I have gotten the feeling for years that the acceptance of religious beliefs other than Christianity have been done so as window dressing. There was the recent story of the kid kicked out of Scouts for being a Wiccan. Now, while I see the Wiccan religion as being somewhat siily, it is not my nor anyone elses place to say what people can or cannot believe. I have also heard of a Unitarian Scout being given the boot by his Scoutmaster when the Scoutmaster found out the boys religious affiliation.

 

It is not the place of the BSA to conduct religious indoctrination. That is the sole responsibility of the parents. It is not my place as a leader to proselytize my beliefs with the young men and women in my Crew. Religion belongs is the realm of the family, not Scouting.

 

How many non-theist boys have been denied access over the years to Scouting? While I have issues with the BSA over the gay issue, it is the religious issue that I am mainly concerned with.

 

 

The rise of the religious right, has seen the rise in the BSA of this religous pandering. Much of the doctrine fo the religious right comes from the 19th century and John Nelson Darby, and is as intellectually bankrupt as it can be.

 

A recent Penn and Teller program claimed the Mormon Church has taken over the leadership of the BSA. I don't know that to be true but it could be very easily.

 

The rise of the religious right, and its affect on Scouting will run it's course eventually. The rise came about from the excesses of the 1960's and the sexual revolution, and in the end the same ending will happen to the current hyper-religiosity. In many ways it may be considered a revitilization movement that is destined to fade away.

 

I love Scouting but would like to see the exclusionary policies ended. Discrimination is bad, and sends the message to our young charges that it is okay to discriminate and hate the "wrong" sort of people. This is the opposite of what we should be teaching.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[GernBlansten]

I often wonder if those who promote the public display of religion and governmental support of religious activities would have the same views had their religion been the minority one?

[Hunt]

Bobanon, using terms like "religious reich" detracts from (destroys, really) your ability to persuade anybody who doesn't already agree with you. This is the point that I've been trying to make about persuasion. You really need to take the hint and drop that kind of rhetoric.

Merlyn, do you think the Roman Catholic Church denigrates atheists by refusing to allow them to receive Mass? BSA is a club for people who believe in God and who think that's important--if you don't agree with that, you can't join. If you feel denigrated by that, I suggest you don't know what denigration is.

[Eagledad]

>>Bobanon, using terms like "religious reich" detracts from (destroys, really) your ability to persuade anybody who doesn't already agree with you.

[Trevorum]

Bobanon, I agree with Hunt. As I mentioned in another thread, you automatically loose your argument in the arena of public debate by invoking a frivolous reference to Hitler, Nazism, or the Holocaust. This is referred to (only semi-humorously) as Godwin's Law.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hunt, the BSA denegrates atheists via their DRP, which says that only theist members can be the best kinds of citizens. The RCC has its own rituals for its own members, and will exclude atheists as well as other Christians (if they don't consider those other Christians as being validly baptized, for example).

[Hunt]

"Hunt, the BSA denegrates atheists via their DRP, which says that only theist members can be the best kinds of citizens."

 

"Denigrate" means "To attack the character or reputation of; speak ill of; defame. To disparage; belittle." The DRP simply doesn't rise to this level--it's really no different from the Roman Catholics believing that they are the best kind of Christians. I don't agree, but I don't feel denigrated by that simple belief. BSA is not on a campaign to badmouth atheists--they just don't let atheists join the club, because they think the atheists are wrong about something important.

There are lots of clubs that restrict membership to those who agree with them--take a look at the statement of principles that one must agree to in order to be a member of the American Atheists, Inc., and you will see that it "denigrates" believers in the supernatural in the same way that BSA's DRP "denigrates" nonbelievers. That is, it doesn't, really, although it makes it clear that those who are not materialists are misguided.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hunt, I disagree completely. The DRP says that atheists cannot be the best kinds of citizens; at best, they can be second-class citizens. I call that denegrating.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I grew up with school prayer. The administration played a Christian song over the loud speaker and then had a Christian prayer every day. Since I was a Christian, my feeling was still guarded because I kept thinking about some of my friends that were of other faiths. I later decided that everyone must be Christian by default during these interludes and that it was understood to be universal. Years later as an adult, I delivered a Christian sermon at a Camporee. My best friend came up to me afterwards and reminded me that he was Jewish. I told him I did not know how to make it universal and that he should have understood the default mechanism. He allowed me my stupidism by default of our friendship.

 

My friend is now an adult leader in a Jewish Troop. He is able to worship and speak freely about his beliefs in his unit and not be worried by short-sighted friends like myself(ishness). This is just one example of taking things for granted and infringing on the rights of others and their beliefs. I believe that people come to God and respond to God as an individual and not because of a public address or a song. People find God not because of us but in spite of our best efforts to do otherwise. God looks on the heart of a person and sees through all of the falsehoods, easily. So, it is what is done in private that is truly religious.

 

I also do not mean that people of the same faith should not worship together because worship is a spontaneous joyful outpouring to God. I would caution against those who wish to publicly worship God/gods altogether because of the differences in meanings and faiths, so if you do keep it very simple. There are enough differences in any one faith to make for an abundance of problems not to mention when they all come together. I also believe that mixing politics and religion is like trying to mix oil and water. So, to simplify this action is to bring the Troops home to the Churches and get them out of the public facilities and away from any show of political favoritism.

 

Eagledad,

I did not mean to imply that people quit believing in their God while at school, home, work or play. I mean quite the opposite. It is just at those very times that the teaching of their religion takes center stage but it has nothing to do with religious babblings. A person's heart that has been molded by their God does the speaking for them. It is a person's manner of "doing" that expresses genuine religion. From elementary to high school, students learn the 3 -R's and they need all of the religious training they receive from their parents and their ministers to ensure a quality education. Let the teachers that are trained to teach, teach and the ministers that are trained to preach, preach.

 

"The BSA is a private organization that has religious membership requirements. That doesn't make it a religious organization. Public schools should (not) be allowed to charter BSA units."

Ed, I agree with your statement about the BSA but respectfully disagree with your conclusion, see insertion.

 

Bob,

The BSA's policies are made by individuals that are required to believe in a God. So, I must assume that their policy is an expression of their training, their heart, their God. Our response is composed of the same mixture.

 

FB

 

 

 

 

 

[Bobanon]

Okay, I apologize for the "religious reich". My bad.

 

Hunt I am confused by your: "Merlyn, do you think the Roman Catholic Church denigrates atheists by refusing to allow them to receive Mass?" Why would an atheist be upset for not being allowed to receive Mass?

 

On the issue of belief in God. Perhaps it would be more of a universal and acceptable for those other than Christians for the BSA to "have a belief in Deity" for admittance. I don't think this would be offensive to Christians either. Besides, this is one of the requirement to become a Mason, and it has worked well for them.