USA Today

[Fuzzy Bear]

Let me pose a similar question. Ask a Scout about their duty to their Country. It is a complex question for a youth. The individual is not old enough to vote. They may have only vague ideas about the laws of t he land. The majority does not drive and if they do they are beginners. They have not served in the Armed Forces. They do not pay taxes and most do not work full-time jobs or own homes. History may be a subject only about the olden days and government may have been a course they were forced to take in school.

 

We teach them to say the Pledge of Allegiance and to salute the flag. We may sometimes speak about duty to country during a SMs Minute. Unless they are a legal alien and are taking Citizenship classes, there is little systematic indoctrination. Of course, most are legal citizens and there are not many choices when it comes for people to deny their citizenship. If a Scout had an unusual idea about duty to country, would we be as quick to pull the plug or would we want the youth to explore further with those over his charge?

 

As much as we speak and debate about ones duty to God, we do not appear to be as concerned about the other 11 points. Is it because the other 11 are simple and easily mastered or is it because they are so complex that they are too difficult to teach? It appears that the concern over ones religious duty is of primary importance in Scouting. It may be better that we simply point the way and allow Scouts to make their own decisions.

FB

[yellow_hammer]

Fuzzy Bear,

 

I think there is more talk about Reverent than the other points of the Scout Law because it is the only one that some people don't consider to be self-evident as a good thing. It is the only point that is controversial and therefore it generates more discussion.

[DanKroh]

SueM wrote "I have one boy who claims to be a Wican..discussions with him are always interesting!!"

 

Just out of curiosity, Sue, why do you think the boy only "claims" to be Wiccan (as opposed to Wican)? Do you have some reason to think that he is insincere in his profession of his chosen faith?

[T165Scouter]

Fuzzy Bear brings up an excellent point about the focus of BSA. I would say BSA National along with my own council is "hyper-focused" on the 12th point of the Scout Law to their own detriment. I've often wondered what has happened to the other 11...did they all of a sudden go out of style? Where was I when that happened?

 

As a Scoutmaster, I will NEVER ask a boy if he believes in God. That's his own business within the confines of his family and their view of what God is or isn't. Asking for belief confirmation invariably leads to other areas of one's belief system that I will not tread into. My Scoutmaster Conferences focus on leadership aspects, the outdoors, goal-setting...stuff that I and the boy can readily sink our teeth into.

[ohadam]

Ed, I don't know how you ask it, and don't know the relationship you have with your scouts, but I'd probably pull my boys from the troop of a SM who was controntational about belief in God because he wouldn't be able to help them as much as someone else might.

 

I want my four boys to grow up to be spiritual beings. Confrontation from an authority figure would be more likely to alienate them than help them, in my opinion.

 

"If it's true, you don't need to belabor it. If it isn't, no amount of belaborment will help."

 

Adam

[jkhny]

"Q: How is membership?

A: We've got about 4.6 million kids in Scouting. Basically the same number of kids as it has been for the past 10 or 15 years. We ought to be serving 10 million kids ... but we're working on that. "

 

It'd be nice if the head of BSA was a bit more honest here.

 

Even BSA goes to great lengths to say "Learning for Life" is NOT "Scouting" - so they can claim a separate legal status for that organization. The program is clearly not Scouting but it is convenient for BSA to claim those numbers to hide the dramatic declines in Scouting membership. A professional noted that when you're seeing incerases in LFL membership counts while Scouting numbers are declining, that's a sign that there are problems in a Council. It's easier for professionals to boost LFL counts that get members in Scouting - and a common ploy to make up for shortfalls in membership goals. Hmmmm.... if that's a red flag at the Council level, why isn't it a red flag at the NATIONAL level?

 

If BSA wants to be in the "supplemental educational programs for pay" business - say so and be up front and clear about it. DON'T say it's SCOUTING and don't count it as SCOUTING.

 

 

SCOUTING membership is 2.9 million - or rather 2.9 million boys were enrolled in Scouting programs at some time during 2005. BOY SCOUTS is under 1 million - a sad situation.

 

They were not all active at the same time. BSA is lucky to have 2.5 million boys "actively participating" in Scouting at any time during the school year. Look at the beginning of the calendar year after charter renewals - before the new influx in the fall)

 

 

The method of counting has changed to slide charter renewals to year end to allow "total served during the year" counts to be used - which are far higher.

 

Our Council routinely claims "over 10,000" when there are less than 7,000 enrolled in Scouting at any time during the year. Maybe 6,000 are actively participating. There are another 1000 from "Learning for Life". As in too many other Councils, we're seeing increases in LFL counts while Scouting numbers decline - even though the "year-end totals" are boosted by "churning" - signing up lots of boys that don't stay active for even a full year (but they're on the roster).

 

SCOUTING membership continues to slide (down 6.6% by their own calculations for 2005 on their own site) - and BSA's public reaction is smoke and mirrors and semantics.

 

Roy Williams claims that BSA uses "statistics to measure success." Well, there hasn't been much "success to measure" and thestatistics are carefully used to give the impression of "success" when none exists. An accurate analysis would say that SCOUTING membership continues a dramatic decline - somethign that casts the future of this organization (at least as far as being the custodian of the Scouting Movement in the U.S. goes) in doubt.

 

I've seen the same games played in the corporate world. Used in some situations, playing games like this with numbers is considered fraud and grounds for legal action. And what happened to all those enrollment fraud cases from last year?

[evmori]

Ed, I don't know how you ask it, and don't know the relationship you have with your scouts, but I'd probably pull my boys from the troop of a SM who was confrontational about belief in God because he wouldn't be able to help them as much as someone else might.

 

I ask "Do you believe in God?"

 

I have a great relationship with my Scouts.

 

How is asking a question confrontational? Sure it's not the same as "How was school?" but it's not confrontational. I do this at BOR's. And if a Scout tells me he doesn't believe in God we talk about it. And if he actually doesn't believe in God the BOR is over & the Scout doesn't advance. Belief in God is a requirement for membership.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear]

Ed,

 

To ask a question that has already been asked and answered by signing the registration form is to imply the Scout is untrustworthy, disloyal, disobedient, cowardly, and irreverent. That is the reason that the question is confrontational.

 

To ask a question regarding one's religious growth assumes the Scout believes in God and is seeking his way daily. It opens the door for an interchange and a way to get to know the Scout personally. It is a question based on friendship and brotherhood. It allows one to reflect about what is happening to them spiritually.

 

People seldom find God or obtain a strong relationship without a struggle. Scouts are young people and do not come with years of experience. They are growing in every way and coming to terms with problems that are difficult. That is where the depth of your own walk can be shared and is so valuable to each Scout.

 

FB

[oldsm]

So...

 

If we don't ask about a boy believing in God (or however we want to cage "religious beliefs"), what happens when he goes to fill out an Eagle Scout Rank Application and doesn't have a Religious reference to list?

[Hunt]

It disresses me that this has come up again, because it should be so obvious to anyone that asking a boy in a BOR of review "do you believe in God" is not only improper, but neither courteous nor friendly nor kind. It's improper because the BOR is not the venue to determine whether a boy meets the membership requirements of BSA--would you verify that he's really male? It's rude and unfriendly because it's an aggressive question that suggests he's a liar when he recites the oath and law. The right way to address the issue is to ask him to discuss how he fulfills his duty to God, or how he lives out the "reverent" element of the Scout Law.

And when he goes to fill out his Eagle application, he can put down his parent's name if he doesn't have a formal religious affiliation.

[SR540Beaver]

Ed: And if a Scout tells me he doesn't believe in God we talk about it.

 

I'd be very interested in hearing your conversation with my son. I'm a life long Southern Baptist with a degree in Religion from a Baptist University, spent a year at seminary, spent some time in the ministry and am an ordained Deacon. Unless you can knowledgably discuss with my son belief in God within my theological framework, I'd prefer you keep your views to yourself. You are more than welcome to ask him to describe in his own words how he performs his duty to God and his understanding and observance of being reverant.

[Lisabob]

I find all of this very interesting. A few years ago when he was in cubs, my son earned a religious emblem from a church where we are not members. As part of the program, my husband and I participated with him. I admit that at first I was a little wary. Most of my personal experiences with organized religion haven't been too good and I was expecting this to be a hard sell for this particular church. But my son wanted to do it (mostly, I think, because several of his buddies who do go to that church were doing it) so I agreed. Looking back, I am grateful that we had a structured opportunity to do this because it provided outlets for discussion, sharing, and exploration for all of us. The church also never sought conversions in the process and they were open to question, comparison, and discussion (not the same as the religious atmosphere that I grew up in, that's for sure!). In short, the experience was an enriching one. So I am not automatically convinced that we should ignore the religious component of the BSA program.

 

But religion is still a difficult topic for many people to discuss, sometimes even with family members.

 

That's why I wondered how people approach it in BORs, which, it seems to me, can be tense settings on occasion. Here you're dealing with a young man whose ideas are almost certainly not fully formed, who may view himself as being in the "hot seat," and you're asking him about what may be a contested topic in his own family. Seems it would require a light touch and a great deal of tact and understanding of others' beliefs, to pull off such a discussion and get desirable results. I'm not opposed to asking about it - I just wondered how people go about this, is all.

 

Now Ed, it seems that you are probably more direct in your approach than most of the other people who have posted. You've mentioned what you do when a boy says no. What about when a boy says yes? Is that the end of the story? Also, I'm curious to know whether your troop's CO is a religious organization and/or whether most/all of the boys in the troop have the same religious backgrounds? Please don't take this as an attack because it is not meant as such - I'm just thinking about when a direct approach might be more accepted by those on the receiving end (and their parents)?

 

Lisa'bob

[evmori]

SR540Beaver,

 

I have been a Christian all my life, am an ordained elder, very active in my church & men's group and fairly well versed in Christian history & the Bible. I was born & raised Catholic and have been a Presbyterian for the last 20 years. I don't profess to be a religious expert, just a devout believer that Jesus Christ is my Lord & Savior. If that isn't good enough for you, too bad.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[evmori]

What about when a boy says yes? Is that the end of the story?

 

When the Scout says yes the next question is usually along the lines of how do you show your reverence to God?

 

Also, I'm curious to know whether your troop's CO is a religious organization and/or whether most/all of the boys in the troop have type of some religious backgrounds?

 

We are chartered by a Methodist Church. All the Scouts come from some type of religious background.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

So are most of the boys Methodist then? Does the CO prefer that you discuss specifically Methodist ideas (whatever those might be)? Does the troop have a specific religious character to it, which would be evident to people when they are looking for a troop to join in your area? In a case like that I can see asking more direct questions about a boy's religious beliefs in a BOR.

 

Most of the troops I'm familiar with either are not sponsored by religious organizations, or are sponsored by religious orgs that none the less do not impose any preferences on the membership or conduct of the troop. And most have boys from a wide variety of religious backgrounds, not just variations on Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. In a case like that, which in my area appears more common, then I think it would be more troublesome to ask specific and very direct religious questions. Boys and/or their parents might be worried about giving an answer that doesn't fit the "norm" or that is deemed "wrong" by someone in the troop with an agenda.

 

Lisa'bob