Rulesmongering

[Beavah]

A Scout is Trustworthy. A Scout is Obedient. These are basic values of the program.

 

I was a scout for 1 year as a boy. I remember goin' to scout camp, and having some guy lecture me on waterfront rules for an hour, then on archery range rules for an hour, then on the rules for the dining hall, then more waterfront rules. Then some guy screamed at me for violatin' rule 79 which I didn't remember from lecture number 3. Guess I wasn't obedient, eh?

 

I went to another camp the next year, and it was fun. Never looked back. Didn't get back into scouts until my kids came in.

 

I still watch the same attitude among adults at summer camp. Makes me sad, eh? Makes me angry too. I watch it here on this forum as well. I see it as a commish all the time, from uniform police to handbook mavens to buffoons who talk nonsense about "liability."

 

Why is it we feel comfortable bandying about "obedient" and ignoring helpful, friendly, courteous? Getting stuck on "trustworthy" but missin' "mentally awake and morally straight?"

 

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. And honoring the sabbath was a divine rule. Human rulemakers vary in both competence and honor. Rules must be looked at on their merits before they are followed, and on whether they really fit da circumstance. That's mentally awake and morally straight.

 

And rulemakers must be conscious of never writing a rule without careful analysis of its negatives as well as its positives, including the loss of freedom all rules entail. Banning all bicycles on the grounds that doing so will save a number of children's lives is not OK, no matter how we wax poetic about "if we can save just one child..." And havin' 79 waterfront may really not be better than havin' 9.

 

Yah, and there is also an obligation to follow authority or rules even if they're wrong, if the damage done by disobeying them is greater than the damage done by obeying them, which is often the case. Societies do need some structure, eh? So, yah, there is a role for "obedient" for sure. It is part of the values.

 

But only part.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Beavah I agree that rules can be over-played. They're used by people to control others, they're used by people to justify doing things "their" way even when "their way" doesn't make a lot of sense, and they're used by people who are overly cautious to avoid anything that might include the slightest element of danger.

 

But there do have to be some basic rules that everybody agrees to follow. Like the G2SS or not, those ARE the rules and we shouldn't be picking and choosing which of them suits us on a given day.

My beef is that when people start saying, oh these rules are merely advisory suggestions that can be bent, twisted, applied or not, as people think is appropriate, then they lose any solid meaning. Among other things, there are (how many?) millions of us in the BSA and if we all do this, some people are going to make some very stupid decisions about which rules to follow. (You have to know it'll happen - I have met a lot of wonderful scouters but we've all met some real dunderheads too. At least if there ARE clear rules, we can attempt to keep the dunderheads from doing anything truly misguided in the context of our scouting program.)

 

As a parent, I don't want to have to worry that some leader in my kid's troop is making up his or her own rules as they go along. Most parents aren't going to have the skill to know when the leaders are going too far in this respect (when it comes to outdoor activity anyway) so what we have to do to convince parents that we're a) capable and b) safe is let them know what the basic rules are and assure them that we stick to them even when it is inconvenient. You don't need to be a drill sergeant to do this. But...Don't do this and no way are you taking my kid anywhere.

 

So you want to change the rules. OK, that's not out of line w/ the part of the scout law that you quoted: "A scout is obedient." Go back and look at what it says, though, about how to challenge rules that you believe need to be changed. It doesn't say "ignore them or find whatever loopholes you can so as to violate the spirit of the rule while still claiming that technically you're following the rule."

 

 

Lisa'bob

 

[Trevorum]

I've taught my children to think for themselves and not just believe what other people tell them ("mentally awake"). I've also taught them that following an unjust law is wrong. The law may be legal today, but it will always be wrong. At the same time I've taught them the importance of the rule of law in preserving the cohesiveness of our society, and that if they choose to disobey a law in good conscience, they also need to be prepared to suffer the consequences. I think this is at the core of "making ethical choices", not just blindly following the crowd.

[Eamonn]

I like people who challenge or question rules.

One real nice thing about working with older youth is that they do it all the time.

For my part I see it as an opportunity for open debate and a chance to work on ethical thinking.

We all seem to have our own pet peeves when it comes to rules.

I spent most of my school years being yelled at by masters for not wearing my school uniform hat or having my hands in my pockets.

A lot of rules are made because we don't feel that people will do the right thing.

Speed limits are posted because the feeling is that drivers will not drive at a safe speed for the conditions. There are rules against taking other peoples stuff and hurting or killing people.

As adults we have the right to elect the people who make our laws. We trust them to make and pass laws that will keep us safe.

Different organizations have different rules or standards. Our local Elks club doesn't allow the wearing of hats or caps at the bar. This doesn't worry me as I hate hats.

My local club doesn't allow jeans to be worn on the course, in the bar or in any of the restaurants. I like jeans and think I look better in them than some of the old guys with shorts on! I admit I have never challenged the rules, they were there before I joined and I think they will be there long after I'm gone.

I'm not always sure how some rules come into being.

I know some BSA rules don't seem to make sense. The number of Lifeguards needed to take Cub Scouts swimming seems a little over the top.If this came from the insurance companies, I think I might feel a little better than if it came from someone who had never taken a bunch of Cub Scouts swimming.

For the most part I feel that when we choose to join an organization, we accept the stuff that comes along with the organization.

At the risk of coming off like a Rulemongerer? I don't see how an adult leader can not wear the full uniform? Surely they knew before they joined that this is a uniformed organization.

We had a case where a ASM took a group of Boy Scouts camping for a weekend by himself. He knew what he was doing was wrong.

When a youth comes to me with something about a rule that he or she feels is unfair or wrong. We try and look at the rule and why it is in place. I really do try not to say "Because it's the rule!"

I think I would have to struggle for a very long time with :

"Rules must be looked at on their merits before they are followed, and on whether they really fit da circumstance."

I don't know if I'm qualified to know all the merits? I'm not even sure if all rules have to have merits?

Last week I was thinking about consequences.Mainly from the "What happens if?" point of view.

In most cases the penalty for not following the guidelines of the BSA is that others will raise a few eyebrows and shake their head.

I would hope we as a group are a very understanding and forgiving group.

I may not understand how an adult can not wear full uniform, but a Lady arrived to participate in a Wood Badge course, in blue jeans. She is a an African American, who is the Cub Scout Leader of what I think is the only African American pack in our Council. I have no idea what sort of pack she runs, but I've seen her and the pack at Parent Son Weekends, the kids seem to be having a great time and having fun. Sure I'd sent out lots of information that asked people to wear full and correct uniform. But when she didn't? We just took no notice.

A little Lad arrived to travel to the Jamboree wearing his brand new Jambo T-shirt. His uniform was packed in his foot locker. We had stressed that travel to and from the Jambo would be in full uniform. I could only smile and make sure he didn't miss the bus. Sure the other Scouts asked him time and time again where his uniform was? I think he got the message.

I know that if I ever I have to do the Jambo thing again I need to do a better job of telling Scouts not to pack their uniforms in their footlocker.

One really great thing about the Scout Law is that it stresses what as Scout is.

The bad thing about the Scout Oath and Law is that every-time you think you have it, the bar gets raised a little higher.

I got myself into hot water one time when in our Council newspaper I wrote an article about commissioners. In it I said I wanted (I was District Commissioner at the time) Warm and Cuddly Commissioners. Our Council Commissioner didn't like the word cuddly. My point was that I wanted people who really would be a friend to the unit.

Sometimes it's not the rules that are at fault it's in the sale.

Eamonn.

[scoutldr]

I think it's not so much the rules, as it is the presentation. Every year at summer camp, we have to endure the Sunday afternoon "orientation". The scouts are herded around the camp, where they are lectured on the "rules" for each area, most of which don't change from year to year. There is one particular female staff member we refer to as the "smile police". If someone is having fun, it seems to be her job to stop it. The way she comes across as a Drill Instructor addressing a squad of recruits doesn't make the message any easier to swallow.

[Kahuna]

There will always be adults and older kids who think you have to have plenty of rules to make things run properly. I think Eamonn has hit the proper balance. I've always felt we should have as few rules as possible and enforce them with enlightenment. It is not the end of the world if a Scout travels out of uniform.

 

Waterfront personnel are usually the worst offenders. Some years ago, we took our troop to Camp Owasippe. We had a wonderful experience and just loved all the staff we came into contact with. One exception. We went down to the waterfront to respond to a request for adult assistance at mile swim or something like that. No one was on the lakefront except the waterfront staff. We walked out on the beach to where the head honcho was and he immediately started throwing a fit because we hadn't posted buddy tags and asked for permission to enter "his" waterfront. I was, btw, a Red Cross Water Safety Instructor. We just left and never returned. He could manage "his" waterfront without our help.

 

Our troop had very few ironclad rules and the scouts always knew they were important. In almost 20 years, we never had a safety problem.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I went to a Summer Camp every year from 11 until I graduated. There were rules but I was never harangued for an hour by anyone. Rules were given in short order and we were expected to follow them. As an adult, I staffed and ran Camporees, Cuborees, Cub Swim and Scout Swim lessons. I have taught in and managed Cub Day Camps, Resident Camps, Scout Camps, Camps for the Disabled. Rules are reviewed quickly and the action begins. Sessions, depending on the camp, may not even be an hour in length, so I am not sure what kind of camp or Council is involved with the rule overload.

 

As a former shop teacher, if the class was two hours, thirty minutes was for lecture and response, then we spent and hour and fifteen minutes working and had the last few minutes to clean up the area. I question authority where I see abuse or am unclear about a rule. My son does the same. If he perceives an injustice, he reacts. My students were encouraged to do the same but they needed little encouragement because they were the ones who generally broke them. Rules are a good counter balance to ensure compliance with a safe environment where fun can and should be paramount.

 

There is a standard that should be used by any director or teacher. If the student/Scout runs to your class, then you know they are expecting to learn and to have fun. By the way, running in the hall is not allowed. It is unsafe, so if you see somebody doing it, just remind them to slow down. FB

 

 

[funscout]

My District's Day Camp used to start out with a very boring first day. The kids had to sit and listen to a 40 minute lecture on rules and safety for archery and another 40 minutes of the same for BB shooting. Some kids never came back for the rest of the week, and I couldn't blame them. Who wants to go to camp to just sit and listen to adults talk?

 

Luckily, things have improved, so the boys now get a quick demonstration and a short talk about safety and then they get to do what they came for - shoot arrows and BBs! It's too bad some instructors think that the more information they give, the safer the kids will be. They forget that kids (and many adults) will tune out after only a few minutes, so the rest of the talk is just a waste of breath.

[LongHaul]

Kahuna,

Im a little surprised at your post. Being a Red Cross Water Safety Instructor you should know better than to enter a restricted water front area without permission and being a Scout Leader you should know better than to enter a water front without posting buddy tags on the check in board. I worked the water front at Camp Owasippe and at the very beach you were on but when it was Camp Wilderness before it was renamed Camp Blackhawk. Camp Owasippe has been in service since 1911 and we have not had any, not one, water front fatality we are proud of that. If you read a post I made to a different thread youll know that those rules are not always followed to the letter but thats not because the water front staff wants it that way. Would you have entered the shooting range without permission and walked down range unannounced?

LongHaul

 

[Kahuna]

I've been on rifle ranges many times without permission when they were not operating, but it's not the same thing (I was also a range safety officer at Camp Perry). If you can't see that, I can't explain it to you. Nobody ever got drowned on a waterfront beach as far as I'm aware. As I mentioned, there was nobody on the waterfront except us and the staff. I have walked onto "their" waterfronts many times without "their" and that's the only one I've ever been chased off of.

 

I'm sure that Owasippe has a great safety record and I have never been to a Scout camp where there has been a waterfront fatality. There are times for rules and times to use common sense.

[Eamonn]

I think maybe I have a problem with people who forget that this is the Boy Scouts.

I'm fairly confident in my ability.

I like to think that when it comes to the skills needed to be a Scout, I'm maybe a little above average.

I was never in the military. I don't have any special forces training.

I really do like kids and would never do anything that would hurt or harm them.

While I don't go in for specialized equipment. I do have some of the better equipment that is out there.I think maybe I'm better equipped than most of the Scouts and I try to remember this. Also they are at the mercy of their parents when it comes to buying stuff.

When I take Scouts away one of the main things I focus on is having fun. Sure I want our activities to challenge and provide adventure.

I really want everyone to be safe, after all being hurt isn't any fun.

I don't think I'm really good at anything. After all I'm just a Scouter. But I take it to heart.

Over the years I have met all sorts of Scouter's. Some like me who just seem to know enough to provide a decent scouting program. Some who are just starting out, having never been a Scout, but are willing and ready to learn.

But the Scouter's who worry me the most are the guys who seem to think we are all specialists. The First Aid guys who have equipment than the Emergency Room in their First Aid kits. The Backpacker who has the latest and greatest equipment and thinks that everyone can do 25 miles before breakfast.

Then there is the "Director".

We used to have a person who was our Cub Scout Resident Camp Director. Before the Camp, sometime in January or February she had a meeting of all the leaders, where she read the 30 page book of rules. She got mad at me one year as I started circulating a sign up sheet during her meeting for people to join the Escape Committee.

Of hand I can't think of any BSA rules that I really have an issue with (I'm not very happy with all the table-top displays needed for Venturing Advancement. I think Scout uniforms are getting way over priced.)But I've met some people who just go over the top.

I'm OK with the age appropriate activities. Even if they only serve to ensure that kids have something to look forward to.

I think that the Scout Handbook does a good job.

I know that I can do very well thank you very much without very much input or interference from the District or Council. Still I do follow the rules and file all the paperwork that is needed.

When it comes to "Rulesmongering" it seems that this upsets the adults more than the Scouts? This might mean that the Scouts just vote with their feet?

Maybe we need to remember that A Scout is Cheerful?

Eamonn.

 

[Cheerful Eagle]

When my DH and I were first faced with the responsibility of rule-making and discipline, we agreed on a policy of graded consequences. Writing on the wall got a mild lecture and clean-up duty; stepping off the sidewalk into the street without permission got a few well placeed swats on the behind. My perspective: I can live with scribbles on the wall; I can't imagine living with my child in a wheelchair, or worse in a coffin, because of a preventable accident.

 

Back to the idea of how to manage conflict, I think it's important to realize that the waterfront staff's worst nightmare is for a scout to be hurt. We only worry about drowning or near-drowning accidents when we go to the water; THEY worry about it every day.

 

In the case of the rule-happy staffer, after you spend time finding commen ground, perhaps the way to go is to remind the scouter that the youth have a SMALL short trem memory. None of them will remember 79 rules. Far more effective and SAFE to have seven or less Cardinal Rules which can be posted in LARGE letters by the waterfront, and recited quickly.

 

In the case of the confident ScoutMaster, please recognize, when you break a rule, especially a standard operating procedure one, you are effectivly challenging the waterfront staff's authority AND competency. You may not have intended it that way, but that is a legitimate and logical interpretation of your actions. If only to avoid giving waterfront staff (and range staff, too) nightmares and panic attacks, we should respect their authority: they have accepted responsibility for the lives of our scouts.

[AvidSM]

The crossing sign says, "Do not walk". You look both ways, see no cars coming, and cross the street anyway. You saw no risk, but broke the "do not walk" rule.

 

Now you are at the same street, but in uniform with a group of scouts. The sign says, "Do not walk". You look both ways and see no traffic. Does your group cross?

 

The situation changes because it's not just you anymore. You are responsible for everyone in the group (plus, you set a bad example by not following the crossing sign). You might make it across in time, but what about your slowest scout? There are too many unknowns in this situation.

 

So it is with scouting. You may think a rule should not be followed (the "do not cross" signal with no visible traffic), but you cannot possibly know enough about everything to have your unit disregard that rule.

 

You may not see the risks, but someone else who makes up the rules has. Someone with far greater experience and knowledge than you has weighed the risks and determined that it's not worth it.

 

If you are the kind of person who has no respect for these rule makers and think yourself more knowledgeable or experienced then they, go ahead and cross ... just don't do it with my scouts in tow.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

You may not see the risks, but someone else who makes up the rules has. Someone with far greater experience and knowledge than you has weighed the risks and determined that it's not worth it.

 

But that cuts both ways, eh? The mythical "someone in authority" out there who has greater knowledge and experience sees only the general condition. At the point when they make the rule, they cannot see your specific situation, and use their special knowledge to tailor a rule just for you.

 

So someone says "zero tolerance" for anyone on the beach without posting a buddy tag as a general rule. But that same knowledgeable someone, if they were there that morning with Kahuna, would have recognized that it made no sense in that circumstance. In fact, I bet they would have taken that aquatics staff aside and had a conversation about the proper way to treat customers and volunteers. The rulesmakers would choose to violate their own rule, rather than apply it foolishly.

 

Rules are generalizations. The only way to do the right thing in a specific situation is to have knowledgeable and caring people in that situation.

 

If you are the kind of person who has no respect for these rule makers and think yourself more knowledgeable or experienced then they, go ahead and cross ... just don't do it with my scouts in tow.

 

Yah, well. If you believe that your kids are kept safe primarily by rules and not by the goodwill and judgment of people, you're sadly mistaken. The troop leaders of that boy who drowned in Arkansas followed the rules. They just lacked the experience and judgment to understand what the underlying principles really were. Just like Kahuna's waterfront staff.

 

I'd much rather have my kids in the hands of a caring, competent individual who used his/her brain about da rules, rather than relying on them blindly.

 

[Oak Tree]

I've actually had this conversation with some parents in my pack. They all came down on the 'use common sense and judgement' side of the fence, rather than on the 'do things by the book regardless' side.

 

Some of the people who write the rules may be very knowledgeable - but that's not a given. And even so, they seem to be writing the rules to try to deal with worst-case situations. If my conditions are considerably better, it may make sense to apply a different set of rules.

 

I hesitate to give examples, since they always seem to sidetrack the conversation, but I'll forge ahead anyway. For example, if only two boys are swimming, do I really need to do buddy checks? If four dads are swimming with their four sons, do we really need two lookouts and a rope at the ready? If I have a beginner swimmer in a lifejacket on calm water and his dad willing to canoe with him, do I really have to say no? If there's no one else on the waterfront, can I approach the staff for a discussion? And so forth.

 

Sometimes you do enforce the rules just for the sake of making the rules consistent. And other times you recognize that good judgement is more important than rules. I could always ask the question about following the speed limit again. Anyone here want to claim that they and all their family members always obey the speed limit? And if you don't, and you knowingly exceed the limit, why do you think it's ok to break that rule, but not others? That rule is presumably made by "someone with far greater experience and knowledge than you".

 

Oak Tree