Wiccan Scout Kicked Out of Troop

[OldGreyEagle]

LDS troops dont use the DRP? Are we sure?

[campcrafter]

OGE

 

I reread that - edited it, and hope it is clearer.

 

I mean that LDS program is modified from that used by other COs, so have special version modified without the DRP for those who wish to use it.

 

I did not mean to imply that LDS does not abide by the DRP.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

ron(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

[Beavah]

All da LDS bashing is gettin' a bit annoying, eh?

 

The Mormons do not have a "different version" of the BSA program or anything of the sort. They use and charter da same BSA program as the rest of us.

 

And they do what every CO has the right and obligation to do... they adapt it to provide the best service to youth that they can, within their context and accordin' to their goals.

 

That's the way BSA scoutin' works. If ya don't like it, as others have said, don't disparage those who use the program. Leave and start your own highly centralized, one-size fits all youth outdoors association.

 

I'm not in favor of ever puttin' kids on da front lines of adult disputes the way that happened in this case, eh? But units are owned and operated by CO's, and they have da same freedom of association that the BSA does.

 

 

 

[fgoodwin]

Of course LDS uses the DRP.

 

Boys and adults joining LDS units sign exactly the same registration forms as every other boy & adult. The forms are identical, and that is where applicants are required to affirm the DRP.

[campcrafter]

Beavah

 

I don't know that there was any bashing of LDS.

 

As for a differnet version of the program - my Webelos Den Leader book uses many pages of paper to outline the LDS agenda for the WEBELOS program for LDS units.

 

an' dats da truf.

 

 

[Beavah]

As for a differnet version of the program - my Webelos Den Leader book uses many pages of paper to outline the LDS agenda for the WEBELOS program for LDS units.

 

But it's da same WEBELOS program and materials as the rest of the country, eh? Da Catholics publish supplementary materials, too, as far as I know. So can anybody... VFW posts can add materials on veterans and spell out their agenda for da use of the BSA programs in their posts.

 

Same program, different CO's with different goals. What LDS does is da way the program is designed to be used by everybody... to support the goals of the chartering org.

 

And dat's da way it is, eh?

 

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Hi all,

 

Once again, sounds like a lot of adults making a tempest in a teapot.

 

Have three questions for you all.

 

I'm not suggesting that the BSA should drop the DRP and most other religious aspects of the program... But if they did:

 

A: Do you think the boys would notice?

 

B: Do you think it would really change the BSA that much?

 

C: Would it change how you served as a scout leader, or the program you put on?

 

I really love the religious emblem program. There's true effort required of the Scout, and he really should get something spiritual out of it. From my limited experience, most of the other religious aspects of scouting don't have that sort of substance, and to some degree trivialize religious practice.

 

PS - Imagine if you would a BSA that allowed atheists, and that there was an emblem program for them. Could be that learning more about what they don't believe in might open their minds...

 

NC

[campcrafter]

Da Beav wrote: "Catholics publish supplementary materials, too, as far as I know."

 

Other than the religious emblems program materials, As a Catholic Scouter, I don't know of any materials that Catholics have affecting the actual scouting program.

 

And even if they do as you said the Catholics are publishing them not the BSA who publishes the Webelos Den Leader Book with specifics for LDS units.

 

My point being that BSA is providing extra accomodations to LDS, and doesn't even seem to wish to consider it for others. True the fact is anyone can register a unit and pretty much run any type of program they want and call it Scouting. You could actually have a Atheist unit and as long as you didn't make waves probably wouldn't be harassed in most areas.

 

This has actually getting way off topic and is pickin nits, my apologies and I'll excuse myself from the discussion.

 

Your Brother in Scouting,

ron

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

[Beavah]

Had to go look dat up, campcrafter. Yah, you're right. There's one page in the Webelos Leader Guide that talks about da plan for LDS. This is in a section describing 5 different alternatives to the webelos plan based on timing - dens with 4th graders, 4th and 5th graders, just 5th graders starting late, etc. LDS units present an age-based timing issue that is addressed in that section.

 

Could as easily been called "Plan E for a pack with age-based instead of grade-based transitions."

 

Might be da future though... could be nice if the BSA customized books for all kinds of kids and CO's. Then the Wiccan, Jewish, or Buddhist scout could have a scout handbook that talks about reverence in his context instead of da generic Christian context Kudu goes on about, eh?

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

My understanding is that LDS packs follow the same Webelos "program" in the sense that they use the same handbook, have the same advancements with the same requirements, etc. As has been said, the difference is in "timing," but the specific thing about the timing is that in LDS packs the Webelos program is only one year (age 10) as opposed to the approximately 1.5 years in other packs, and the boys are entering and leaving constantly, individually (based on their birthday) instead of when they change grades in school as a group. That is why there is a separate page in the Webelos leader book explaining how to best sequence the activity badges and other requirements for the Webelos badge and Arrow of Light so that the boys can earn both. As I recall, it is probably just one double-sided page, not "many pages" as someone said earlier.

 

I have never been particularly offended that the BSA provides this information to better allow LDS packs to adapt the Webelos program to their own needs, but I have wondered how many BSA units an organization would have to charter before they get their own page in the official publications.

[CalicoPenn]

If I'm reading correctly, then the "special LDS" Webelos program is really nothing more than the old way of doing the Webelos program. When I was a Cub, you didn't become a Webelos until you hit your 10th birthday - no exceptions - and when you reached 11, you aged out of Webelos - no exceptions - and yes, that meant you might very well have a crossover ceremony every month the pack meets and people came and went from the Webelos Den all year round. Cubs were based on age, not year in school - the only exceptions being that you could join a Cub Scout pack at age 7 if at the beginning of the current school (pack) year, you were starting 3rd grade (and would turn 8 by the end of the calendar year) and could join a Boy Scout troop from a Webelos Den at age 10 if at the beginning of the current school year, you were starting 6th grade (and would turn 11 by the end of the calendar year). So really, the "special LDS" program isn't really all that special at all - they could run the program using older books.

 

As for why a Catholic or Wiccan (or take you pick of non-Protestant denominations) may be taking God & Country, I can only speculate based on my experiences in my council growing up - Churches were encouraged to open up the religious award program to anyone from any denomination and lads were encouraged, if they desired and their parents approved, to do as many religious award programs from various denominations as they felt they could handle - starting at about the age of 12, a lot of young folks start to really explore their faith and are interested in the faith of others - I would say about 50% of the parents in this area were open-minded enough to allow their children to start exploring other expressions of faith (and maybe I see it that way because my parents didn't prevent us from making our own decisions about our faith and most of my friends and scouting aquaintenances parents were similar to my parents - one of my friends father was a Rabbi and had no problem with his son earning both God & Country and Ad Altare Dei in addition to his own religion's awards). What better way to start that exploration than through a religious award program that explores the issues without being as stringent a program as catechism or bar mitzvah school (I'm sure there is a name for it, I don't know what it is). A number of my friends had 2 or more religious awards. I earned a God and Country (Lutheran) award at age 12, started the Ad Altare Dei program (dropped out) and became a Wiccan at age 14. I think my explorations helped me determine where my true spirituality lies and helped me understand other people's religion. Isn't part of a Scout is Reverent to show respect and understanding of other people's religions?

 

Now for the part where I'll be awaiting the wrath (love the image Campcrafter). It seems interesting to me that the BSA tells units on one hand that they can set their own membership requirements (within the rules of the BSA of course) that allows a unit to say no Wiccans, Catholics, Baptists, Jews, etc. allowed , thus preserving the unit's right of free association while at the same time telling units they can't allow athiests or gays in, which seems to me to violate unit's right of free association. This is a wishy-washy and ultimately untenable position to take - my opinion is that if the BSA is going to make the determination of what the rights of free association for the BSA is going to be, they have to do it all the way - to me that means if they tell units that may have no problem with gays or athiests that they can't have them, they have to tell units that may have a problem with (pick your religion here) that they cannot refuse to take them as long as they are allowed in the BSA by the corporation's rules.

 

CalicoPenn

 

 

[Lynda J]

Looks to me like this Scout Master and CO are opening themselves up to a major lawsuit.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

I disagree Linda.

I think the way COs charter the program from BSA, they have the right to chuck the Wiccans. I think it is a major flaw in the agreement between BSA and the COs.

[Beavah]

Looks to me like this Scout Master and CO are opening themselves up to a major lawsuit.

 

Not likely to be a successful one, eh?

 

I think a suit against a church for not letting people of another denomination into their youth program only ends in summary dismissal, if not a nuisance penalty.

[SSScout]

Whoa. The depth of the discussions here never cease to amaze me.

I was privileged to serve as a Chaplain at the National Jamboree last summer. I met alot of very talented, caring and accepting clergy. As it happens ,I am not "ordained" clergy. My fellow Chaplain of the same faith (also not "ordained") and I had the same duty as any of the other 150 or so Chaplains. We sat with homesick Scouts, listened to troubled adults and youth. We arranged services for our faith.

One of the badges the Scouts could earn involved attending the "Relationships" tents. In here were represented faiths and clubs (Rotary, American Legion, etc.) that had some connection to BSA. The two biggest groups were demonstrably the Catholic Church and the LDS.

My duty here was to welcome Scouts and help direct them to the faith of their choice if it was present, or if not, speak to them about their faith in REAL general terms, and then sign off on the requirement of visiting the Rel Tent (and earn their "G and C" rocker).

 

I met quite a few Scouts who expressed the idea of "shopping" for a faith, and more than one or two who were "not sure" about God and all that stuff. Was I 'evangelical'? I tried not to be, did not feel it was appropriate. Now granted, the Scouts at J were a self selected group, (dare I say somewhat elite?), but I found myself wondering how diverse, how homogenous they were. I met a few Troops that were purely Jewish, purely LDS, darn close to all Protestant.Mixed in were a handful of Muslim, Hindu and Bhuddist Scouts. There has to be a certain self selection, but if you live right next to the synagogue and the next Protestant Troop is miles away, what should a nascient Scout do?

If we ask a Scout to promise to do his duty to "G and C" and they don't yet know what that duty is, should they be REMOVED from Scouting? Perhaps they finally decide that their duty to THEIR god is to NOT believe? Is that contradictory or just too philosophical or is it being really TRUSTWORTHY to their REVERENCE?

My wife started out being not too pro Scout until she met me and decided that if I was the result of Scouting, perhaps she could rethink her opiion.... She is now a trained day camp director, but along with me has issues with BSA about inclusiveness.

How many of you folks are familiar with Campfire as a response to BSA's lack of acceptance of all children, regardless...?