I should have said something

[kraut-60]

I was at the Grant pilgrimage last weekend in Galena IL. where I witnessed a serious breach of scout etiquette on the part of a scout and a scouter.

 

The scouts of the troop I serve were moving to the staging area for the parade when I saw a boy smoking a cigarette. The boy had on a jacket but could be seen to be wearing a tan shirt with a neckerchief visible at the neck of the jacket.

 

What really nags at me know was that an adult wearing a scout uniform was standing right next to this boy and clearly looked at him and did nothing, in fact I frowned at the boy and shook my head (which was noticed by both the scout and scouter) for which I got a dirty look and a wave of the scouters hand in my direction as if to say "MYOB".

 

The so-called scouter was also wearing a jacket that covered any identifying CSP and troop numbers.

 

I mentioned this to the SPL and several of our scouts just to see their reactions. All agreed it was wrong but one scout offered that perhaps what the scout was "smoking" was a fake cigarette sold in the local novelty store.

 

I'm positive it was a real cigarette as the fake ones don't burn down to a shorter length while being puffed on, and I am a former smoker and know what a real "smoke" looks and smells like.

 

I feel something should have been said to the scout but I felt that doing so would be confrontational and possibly would have been taken the wrong way so I said nothing and instead hurried the scouts of our troop along for the parade.

 

While seeing a boy using tobacco is something I can get over, seeing an adult letting the boy do it strikes me as just wrong and does bother me. What do you think should have been done?

[funscout]

GTSS page 28 says, "Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants.

 

Some in this forum take "may" to mean "it's your choice." Now, in my family, if I tell my kids that they MAY NOT do something, it means that the activity is NOT allowed. If I tell them that they MAY do something, then they DO have permission to do so.

 

It seems obvious that the Scouter in question knew he was doing wrong, since he kept his troop numbers covered up and waved away the mild reprimand that was sent his way. That sends a bad message to the scout that it's okay to do something wrong, just make sure you are sneaky enough about it so you don't get caught.

 

Kraut_60, I'm not sure what else you could have done. Someone with higher authority would have had to be the one to reprimand this adult. He knew he was wrong, so he certainly wasn't going to stop just because a fellow Scouter reprimanded him.

 

 

[funscout]

One more thought... I thought it was illegal for minors to use tobacco products. I know it's illegal to sell tobacco products to minors. Oh, the gray areas of rules and laws...

[OldGreyEagle]

Have you ever had a boy in the troop that was from a rather checkered past, that overall wanted to be on the right path but sometimes fate and his own personality got in his way, but his heart "was in the right place"?

 

perhaps you witnessed such a young lad, and he really "needed" a smoke and was told by the adult he was with that he shouldnt smoke in uniform, but also the adult considered that the youth had been on good behavior, that his behavior had been acceptable and that perhaps in allowing a smoke the adult was reaching out to the youth in a way the youth was not accostomed.

 

Maybe he waved you off because you didnt know the background...

 

 

Then again, he may be just a slacker scout with a slacker adult, you just never know

[MaScout]

While I don't think either one should have been smoking, how can you be sure the one was a minor? Because he LOOKED under 18? He might have been an 18-year-old ASM (or 18+ but looked younger)...Old enough to smoke legally. Doesn't make it right or ethical, but still legal. Funscout is right that you weren't really in a position to say anything, though.

[kraut-60]

We had scout who prefered the heavy metal/gothic look and was kind of from the wrong side of the tracks so I can see what you meant in your post OGE, I just hope that a scout wouldnt "need" a smoke (or anything else like drink or...?).

 

Ma Scout; this boys appearance may well be deceiving as to his age, but I'd be willing to bet money he is no older than 14-15.

 

An item the host council had clearly stated in the paperwork at the registration area was that any smoking by scouts and especially scouters (in uniform) was strongly discouraged and would be reprimanded.

 

I suppose the reprimand if any would come about through the hosting council (Blackhawk Council), and I felt though I could have done something, I do see that it was not my place to take it upon myself as the scout was not a member of the troop I serve in. Thanks for your feedback, it is appreciated.

[NJCubScouter]

The meaning of that statement from G2SS has been debated in this forum before. Personally I wish it just said "Use of tobacco products is prohibited at all BSA activities and all adult leaders are required to enforce this prohibition." I wouldn't even limit it to just activities involving "youth participants," but even if that limitation was in there it would be better than the convoluted, ambiguous sentence that is there now.

 

On the other hand, no matter how clear the statement is, I suspect that would not have changed what kraut-60 saw or the fact that the adult leader waved him away.

[Beavah]

I'm with OGE. Ya gotta trust your fellow leader in uniform. Maybe it was the boy's parent. Maybe it was a good scouter who was having a serious conversation with a lad about something of greater importance (his parents getting divorced? his brother going to jail? his girlfriend being pregnant? his mom dying of cancer? ).

 

If he waived you off, take the waive off in stride as cheerful service and support of a fellow scouter, who may be dealing with things you don't know about. Kids smoking is an important issue, but it isn't always the most important issue, eh?

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

I'm with NJCub on this one and have consistently maintained in these forums that BSA needs to spell out a prohibition if that is their intent. While it seems crystal clear to some that MAY means PROHIBITED; to others, MAY means MIGHT. The easiest way to solve the problem is for BSA to spell it out in much more clear language than they currently choose to do.

 

I am a former smokeless tobacco user. I quit cold turkey when we went to National Jamboree last summer. I am however not one of those "reformed" users that hammers everyone else who continues using tobacco. It is best to not use it in front of the boys, but I don't think it is going to warp them for life.

 

My thought was the same as MaScout's. We have a boy who has aged out and is now an ASM. To look at him, you wouldn't think he was a day over 16.

[packsaddle]

The nickname 'beav' MAY be confusing between Beavah and SR540Beaver, MAYbe not. On the other hand, I MIGHT reveal my original reaction to SR540Beaver's change of name and refer to him as 'roadkill'...or I MIGHT not. Either way, I agree with NJ and roadkill on this. I interpret it to mean that tobacco is prohibited. Period...no MAYbe about it. Except, of course, if a leader needs to sneak one in the corner. Sorry SR540Beaver, I couldn't resist.

BTW, congratulations on kicking the stuff. It will be nice to know your children are now more likely to lose their father and bury you at a greater age.

[FScouter]

"I'm with NJCub on this one and have consistently maintained in these forums that BSA needs to spell out a prohibition if that is their intent. While it seems crystal clear to some that MAY means PROHIBITED; to others, MAY means MIGHT. The easiest way to solve the problem is for BSA to spell it out in much more clear language than they currently choose to do."

 

I believe BSA intentionally words things in this manner. How can we adult leaders teach boys to make ethical decisions over their lifetimes, if we cannot decide for ourselves what is ethical and what is not? Are we really so confused that we need BSA to spell it out in precise language?

 

Smoking has no good with it at all. We all know that, including those that smoke. When young boys see smoking taking place and look to us for guidance, what are we going to tell them? Do we really need to look up the answer in the Guide to Safe Scouting?

[packsaddle]

While I agree with the spirit of Fscouter's response and I answer his last question...NO...the ethical issue I see here is not whether to allow tobacco use. To me that is clearly, NO. However, I see a problem when adults are allowed to use tobacco when the boys aren't - at scouting events. In this sense the ethical issue is the policy itself.

 

BSA has the ability to ban tobacco absolutely. It seems hypocritical to me (and to many of the boys who have said the same thing) to maintain this flawed policy. Summer camp or other events are a great way to start to kick the addiction. An adult must be able to function one week without it. Fscouter, I'm not sure whether they word these things that way intentionally or not, but the wording, while clear enough for me, does allow wiggle room for those who don't see this clearly.

[Lisabob]

Those who don't see that clearly with regard to interpretations of the G2SS or those who think it is hypocritical to factor in some wiggle room for adults to smoke might do well to remember that the G2SS is not the final word here. We have laws and one of them is that smoking is illegal for people under the age of 18, but legal for those 18 and older. Seems to me that whatever ambiguity or hypocrisy people may find in the G2SS, there is no such ambiguity in the law.

 

Now I'm not advocating a witch hunt here because I know that in reality, some people do and always will smoke. But I also don't see a lot of cause for confusion on this issue.

 

Lisa'bob

[FScouter]

Boys are going to be exposed to others that smoke. Shielding young eyes from viewing an adult smoking a cigarette doesnt protect them from the dangers of tobacco.

 

The G2SS makes the position clear. There are adult Scouters that smoke and there is nothing more BSA can do to stop adults from making that choice in their lives. We're here to TEACH BOYS to make ethical choices. We teach them about the dangers of drugs, alcohol, and tobacco. What we teach boys about making CHOICES will help them make their own choice about smoking. Our mission is fulfilled when they grow to make good choices.

 

Laying down the law doesn't teach anything.

 

Kraut-60 could have said something like (ignoring the adult) "Gee son, is smoking really one of the lifelong choices you want to make?

[Hunt]

"Smoking has no good with it at all. We all know that, including those that smoke. When young boys see smoking taking place and look to us for guidance, what are we going to tell them? Do we really need to look up the answer in the Guide to Safe Scouting?"

 

Maybe you're right, and maybe the Guide to Safe Scouting shouldn't say anything about smoking at all, since it's an ethical and health issue, and not really a safety one. Since smoking is illegal for children, we don't need the GTSS to tell us the boys can't smoke.

Fscouter, your interpretation seems to be that the GTSS doesn't actually ban smoking at scouting events, but simply points out that it's unethical. Is that your position, or do you think it's a ban, but deliberately worded in an odd manner?