Personal beliefs versus BSA policy

[jmenand]

I realize that this topic may have been discussed in some form previously on this message board. I apologize if it is inappropriate.

 

Another thread got me thinking...

 

What do we as individuals in the BSA who believe in Scouting do if we disagree or feel uncomfortable with some aspect of BSA national policy?

 

Now, I realize that the obvious targets are atheism and homosexuality. But I do not want to debate whether the BSA should/shouldn't allow atheists or homosexuals.

 

What I am suggesting is that most serious minded adults in the BSA could, if they closely examined BSA policies long enough, find something in BSA policy that they disagree with. Maybe you agree that homosexuals and atheists have no place in scouts, but some other less hotly-debated policy goes against your personal morals/beliefs/etc?

 

So, assuming that almost everyone could find something in national policy that they disagree with, and also assuming that we are in favor of MOST of BSA's policies, what is the appropriate way to deal with the the aspects we disagree with? Keep our mouth shut when the topics come up?

 

Is it wrong to be supportive of the BSA, but responsibly, in the company of your fellow adults, criticize aspects of BSA policy?

 

Is it against BSA policy to do that?

 

To privately hold criticisms of certain policies while still maintaining support for the overall BSA program?

 

How many Scouters would we lose if national had a device that could somehow tell if a volunteer didn't agree 100% with BSA policy? Surely we are not so naive as to think that many people could believe whole-heartedly in every tiny semantic detail?

 

Any thoughts or expansions on this? I am absolutely devoted to Scouting and even 99% of BSA's program. But I have felt for a long time that if I even mention in a respectful manner my disagreement with that 1% I don't agree with, that I may be "kicked out" of Scouting. I don't feel this climate of fear is rational or appropriate for Scouting, but I don't know what to do about it.

 

Is it un-scoutlike to feel that I am obeying the scout oath and law, and also feel that some parts of BSA policy go against their own ideals? How do us who love Scouting deal with this?

 

Thank you in advance to anyone who can offer some insight. I don't necessarily intend to find any "answers," but a healthy discussion here is more than I feel comfortable discussing with my fellow scouters, unfortunately. I think this is the real problem.(This message has been edited by jmenand)

[GernBlansten]

These types of thread typically devolve into a debate of the 3 Gs, but I will try to stay on topic.

 

Some scouters approach scouting as a religion and expect others to follow their "all or nothing" mantra. Others are more pragmatic in their approach, extenuating the positive, marginalizing the negative.

 

I too am conflicted. I see scouting as being the best youth organization for instilling leadership and self reliance available. But it isn't the organization I thought it was when I was a youth. I do not agree with the gays stance since I will not discriminate against gays in my personal life. I do not agree with the atheist stance since I will not discriminate against atheists in my personal life. I do not agree with the hypocrisy on demanding compliance to parts of the oath (morally straight) but not showing the same emphasis on (physically strong). Gay scouts(ers) = bad, fat scouts(ers) = OK.

I'm one of those people who think obesity is choice, not a disease.

I do not agree with the policy that allows CO's to tweak the program to their vision (LDS units).

 

But given everything I think is wrong about BSA, much, much more is positive. I put all my effort into delivering those positive aspects, and besides this forum, keep my opinions with the program private.

 

Do I think BSA should change their policies? Of course I do. Do I expect it? no. Should I leave? Don't count on it.

[John-in-KC]

A Scout is Trustworthy.

 

Scouters sign their adult leader applications "in the full light of day." This is particularly so for the Statement of Religious Principle.

 

Having seen volunteers who work at the Council, Region, and National levels, I'm convinced there is an ongoing and healthy debate amongst both volunteers and professionals: What will best serve the ideals of Scouting and the youth of America?

 

My suggestion to you is to serve at unit and district levels in areas you care about. Over the coming years, you may have the opportunity to be an agent of change.

 

As far as an "I disagree" device ... imo, at the unit serving Scouter level, that is a counterproductive proposal. Read the first three points of the Scout Law, in their detailed versions, to see why.

[dan]

I believe the answer is within the Boy Scout Handbook.

 

A Scout is Obedient.

A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.

 

[jmenand]

Gern, I most certainly don't want to leave either.

 

John, I understand that I should not complicate the program as it is delivered to the youth.

 

Perhaps I may be an agent for change, but we are all only human. And even if I could change the program so that I am 100% comfortable with it, I anticipate that most people will always be able to find something to disagree with if they think long enough.

 

My problem is that I fear retaliation for merely raising the issue of dissenting opinion. I'm not talking about rasing dissent with the youth. I understand completely why that is an inappropriate way to generate change. But I wonder if it is not healthy to have debate about disagreements with BSA policy within adult level circles?

 

I admit that my interactions are unit based almost exclusively. Perhaps if I worked higher up in the organization I would find debate to be freer, as you suggest.

 

But I definately feel that my fellow unit-level scouters share, to some degree, my fear of being excluded or "kicked out" if we rock the boat, even within adult-only conversation. This is my personal perception and it concerns me.

[jmenand]

Dan, to clarify I wasn't advocating any sort of active disobedience, but I am raising a concern that I perceive that adults in BSA are trained to never even mention the issues they have with national policy. My fellow adults feel more or less free to joke and gossip as adults with each other when it comes to casual banter and current events, but when it comes to BSA policies I can cut the tension with a knife. I am wondering, is this "right?" For all I know, some of the people I've been working with for years could agree with my dissent, or maybe I'm the only one. But I wouldn't know because we all just deliver the program and keep our opinions about the 1 or 2 things we disagree with to ourselfs.(This message has been edited by jmenand)

[Beavah]

A Scout is Mentally Awake.

 

He/she recognizes the nature of organizations and systems, the limits of policies, and the ethical need to balance strict adherence to policy with compassion, mercy, and understanding.

 

A Scout Helps other people at all times.

 

So if there is a mechanism, like the scouting movement, which provides a wonderful way to help youth learn and grow, a mentally awake scout uses that mechanism for what it's worth. Despite its weaknesses and failures, from policy silliness to corrupt executives, you use the good and work around the bad. Same as all of us do in our religious communities, jobs, and families.

 

It would be a sadness and an evil if a person quit his church, his job, and his family the moment he disagreed with any of them on an issue.

 

A Scout is Courteous and Kind

 

He/she recognizes that people of good will have differences of opinion in some areas, and respects and welcomes that discourse... within a church, within a job, within a family. It would be a sadness and an evil if such differences were not discussed openly and respectfully.

 

and finally, the First Obligation of the Oath is duty to God

 

An honorable scout lives by his/her faith first... before duty to country, before duty to others like "Obedience", before even duty to self.

 

It is unreasonable, unfair, and unethical for those of us who support the BSA's position based on our duty to God to expect our brothers and sisters not to live up to their duty to God to try to change things. Within our family.

 

 

So I think a good Scout(er) might oppose the policy, work around it, work to change it, just ignore it in the interest of compassion, etc.... all so long as he/she doesn't do more damage to the movement and community. Sometimes being right can hurt a group more than going along.

 

And I think a good Scout(er) understands and respects his/her fellows who might disagree, and rather than shouting "Loyalty and Obedience uber alles!", allows some compassion and flexibility. Sometimes being right can hurt a group more than going along.

 

When those two are finally exhausted, I think we listen. A lot. And try to work together to do what makes sense for kids.

 

[John-in-KC]

Mr jmenand,

 

I didn't see you making comment in and around the youth of the program.

 

Dissent by simply speaking can be counter-productive, and, as in any private organization, can cause your removal. That's being blunt.

 

Please remember that Scouting is an organization involving community based service organizations and businesses. Each organization which charters Scout units has a formal vote and voice in the Council. That person is the Chartered Organization Representative.

 

Take the time. Study your issue from the BSA perspective. LEARN THE POLICY behind it. Formulate a rational, coherent idea of the desired change. THEN, and ONLY THEN, approach your COR and discuss your thoughts over a cup of coffee.

 

He may tell you your issue, while important to you, is not worth his time and energy, or he may buy in. If he doesn't buy in, let it lie for some years, work hard, and some day you'll be in a position to propose change.

 

Now, please understand something: One of the very largest "charterers" of Scouting is the LDS Church. As a national organization, they pay real $$$$$ directly to Scouting National (as I understand things) to license the Scouting program as their male youth-serving program vehicle. If your proposal would be considered anathema to a faithful LDS member, my gut says you will not get the time of day.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Personally I do not think that obedience must be blind. I do think that when I put on that uniform I should be upholding the principles that it symbolizes. I do think that if I cannot do that, then I should really look again at my decision to be a member in this organization. I also think that discussion about what those principles should be can be healthy under the right conditions. But, one must choose time, place, and approach to such discussions in a careful manner.

 

At the unit level, you have to keep in mind that you are working very closely with these other adults, often over a period of years. Will this kind of discussion serve to strengthen the unit, or rip it apart over issues that you probably can't resolve to everyone's (anyone's?) satisfaction anyway? That depends a little on the personalities of the people in the unit and how well they know/trust each other to start with. This doesn't necessarily mean you must be silent if/when someone in your unit makes an extremely untactful statement - but hopefully you will be more tactful in your response than they were to start with. And your response can certainly be framed within the context of BSA policy too. (Keeping in mind the scout oath and law)

 

At other levels, again, what purpose will be served? Is this idle chit chat (in which case, I can think of better topics)? Is this a serious discussion of the motives or purposes behind certain policies? Is such a discussion likely to start or aggrevate a witch hunt in your area? Again I think this really depends a lot on the context. For example, the district I'm part of includes one area that is overwhelmingly socially conservative and another that is considered to be the "lefty liberal" hang out in the state. Conversations about social issues relevant to the BSA are colored by this divide, and are more common and more open (in my experience) in one area than the other.

 

In the end I agree with you that there's a good chance that everyone could find something about BSA policy to disagree over. But that's true of almost any large organization. Individually, we have to decide how strongly we disagree and whether or not our disagreement is balanced out by the aspects with which we agree. And then, we need to decide whether or not there's anything we can or should be doing, effectively and realistically, about the elements with which we disagree. Or at least, that's how I approach it.

 

Lisa'bob

[Vicki]

Lisa'bob wrote, "Individually, we have to decide how strongly we disagree and whether or not our disagreement is balanced out by the aspects with which we agree. And then, we need to decide whether or not there's anything we can or should be doing, effectively and realistically, about the elements with which we disagree. Or at least, that's how I approach it."

 

This is how I approach the community of faith to which I have chosen to belong (some of whose policies (beliefs) I have very basic issues with) and the BSA (with which I have fewer issues than I do with my church).

 

I will go one step further in evaluating my personal approach. If I find myself disagreeing so strongly that I must either speak up or leave, I will evaluate whether or not I could possibly make a difference and if the consequences will be worth it. I have spoken up and experienced some fairly negative consequences. Most of the time, it was worth it. I have also taken my ball and gone home. But that analysis will determine whether I speak up or leave.

 

Vicki (edited to get rid of a redundancy)

(This message has been edited by Vicki)

[CA_Scouter]

All posters have given good advice and counsel, I have only a little bit to add.

 

First, I think we all have a thing or two about BSA policy that we don't agree with, and for that matter, there are many policies in other aspects of my life that I don't agree with 100% either. Life is like that.

 

Secondly, your post gives the impression that there are BSA 'Thought Police' out there watching our every move. Perhaps there are certain individuals that you work closely with that are unreasonable like that, but I doubt most scouters are... ( or is that just me being the 'glass is half-full' guy again? )

 

Thirdly, if it is important enough to you, say what is on your mind, in a courteous and constructive manner, and let the chips fall where they may. Persons of character should not walk around in fear of persons without character.

 

 

 

 

[Vicki]

To follow up on what CA_Scouter said - Burke has a good saying on the topic of people of character not speaking up, but my favorite is attributed to Sir Thomas More, when asked for the sake of fellowship to join the nobles supporting an ancient king, More's reply was "And when we die, and you are sent to heaven for heeding your conscience, and I to hell for disregarding mine, will you come with me for the sake of fellowship?"

 

Vicki

[ScoutNut]

"My problem is that I fear retaliation for merely raising the issue of dissenting opinion. I'm not talking about rasing dissent with the youth. I understand completely why that is an inappropriate way to generate change. But I wonder if it is not healthy to have debate about disagreements with BSA policy within adult level circles?"

 

 

There isn't really anything we can say or do that will change your perception of possible persecution if you speak your mind. That is the way you see the world, and only you can change that.

 

My question to you is, why do you feel such a strong need to debate with the fellow Scouters in your unit your (admittedly) minor disagreements with BSA? Are you trying to get them to agree with you? Change their minds? Change your mind? What exactly, other than simply to debate something/anything, would be the point?

 

Sure, there are some BSA policies that I have an issue with. They are NOT deal-breakers or I would NOT still be a member of BSA. They are MY PERSONAL issues/viewpoints. I will not change my mind & I feel no need to "debate" MY feelings with other people. In MHO, it is just none of their business.

 

[scoutldr]

Gern said, "I'm one of those people who think obesity is choice, not a disease."

 

This statement shows how ignorance leads to discrimination. I am 52 years old and have been obese since the day I was born. There is a genetic predisposition, and the disease called obesity is very complex. If it were about "choice" or "education", I would not be this way. That's like telling someone with Asperger's that they are just "choosing to be bad" or telling someone with depression to "just snap out of it." Smoking is an optional choice, but one of the most revered Scouters on this forum chooses to remain a bad role model.

 

So, at the risk of highjacking this thread, let me say that I wrestle with the same moral dilemma. The God I know does not allow me to judge and reject our fellow humans. He reserves that right solely unto Himself. My religious teaching tells me I am to "love my neighbor as He has loved us." I find it difficult to remain loyal to an organization that forces me to discriminate, contrary to my religious upbringing.

 

Yesterday, I saw a TV spot from the United Church of Christ, showing a gay couple embracing in church, and being forcefully ejected (as with an ejection seat). The closing message was "God doesn't reject people, and neither do we." Is the UCC the next organization to risk the wrath of the BSA?

[jmenand]

Beavah- thank you, that is more or less how my heart would like me to approach the situation.

 

John in KC- Yes, I realize that it is a private organization, and in fact that life is filled with private organizations like this. However, it is my perception that other private organizations do not have the same communication problems that the BSA has. My unit is not chartered by a church. This difference means that there are some rather flat out nonreligious people in our unit.

 

Additionally, my fear is perhaps colored by my personal history. While a teenager (not long ago), and on my way to Eagle, I went through a personal religious crisis, and spent a period of time trying different churches in a soul searching journey of sorts. I tried to keep this private, but because my parents were involved with my unit, eventually things got around about what was going on with me. There was even a period where I denounced all churches of any kind as incompatible with my own personal faith.

 

In retrospect, I realize that there are many COR/troops that would not have tolerated some of the things I felt, however briefly, on my spiritual quest. And in fact, even in the confines of a non-religious unit I get the impression that many scouts would be intolerant of me if I tried to put to words my complicated relationship with God. I do not question anyone's faith, but I personally spent a great deal of time developing my spirituality, and to read in the BSA policy that it is open to all denominations of faith but to experience mild, unspoken oppression because of the "way the BSA is" seems counterproductive to Scouting.

 

ScoutNut- I am not concerned very much with changing my perception of fear. Until the climate is gone, I will carry that weight. Instead I just would like to openly wonder how many scouters operate in the BSA with this mentality? John, is it really so entrenched that non-LDS-compatible beliefs should feel persecution anywhere in the organization?

 

In fact, I do think that a couple of my own disagreements with BSA are "deal breakers." But do I lack character just because I refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

 

I have no where else to go to support Scouting (at least for boys). What am I to do, start my own personal Non-BSA scout troop? Because my love of Scouting is so deep, I tolerate more from the BSA than I normally would, just so I can be involved. I don't neccisarilly want to change things, and I know I probably can't. All I want is to get rid of the stigma I feel against talking about these things. I would like to know what my scouts really think about personal religion and free thought, because if they are anything like I was, then they are going through a rough time.

 

I know that I should, and will, let sleeping dogs lie when it comes to these issues, because they do not confront me day-to-day in the unit. Does this mean I lack character?

 

More importantly, does anyone think I really should leave the BSA? That seems like such a poor option to me that I don't even want to entertain the idea. To me that would be as preposterous as leaving the US over disagreements with the current administration. You don't have to point out how leaving a nation is different from leaving a private organization, because personally Scouting is so entrenched in who I am that I think it would actually be easier for me to leave the country than it would be to leave Scouting (or, heaven forbid, be kicked out if my internal conflicts were heard by the people in power!)

 

I won't "do" anything, probably. I will continue to accept the things I cannot change. But I fear for the day when I do have to act as a member of the BSA in a way that contradicts my personal beliefs. It hasn't happened yet, but it probably will at some point.