Rooster7 Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Trevorum, Okay...your Tooth Fairy analogy threw me. So you believe in a god who will not hold people accountable. I'm just trying to understand how one can defend the practice and not feel accountable to a Holy and Righteous God. If you don't believe that such a God exists, then I understand why you are comfortable with your stance. Again, I'm not trying to define who you are...I'm trying to understand from where you are coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongHaul Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 Packsaddle, Your four questions are exactly why I think it is necessary for society to decide when protection under the law begins. Ive tried different phraseologies but it comes down to protection under the law, when does it start. Yes we should consider how we would apply the rule once its made but should how we are going to apply it dictate whether we should create the law in the first place? Yes the wealthy could circumvent the law and the poor couldnt should we then not make it a law? Addressing your questions individually is hard unless we first draw a line of protection. Roman Catholic Doctrine forbids all forms of birth control, Thou shalt not waste the seed of a child some think the rhythm method is wrong because those people would still be seeking to waste the seed of a child sexual intercourse without the specific intent of procreation being sinful. This would address all your questions in one view point. There is no need here to draw a line because everything is forbidden that seek to prevent a birth. RCD does not however address fetal abuse by drinking, smoking, physically overactive child bearing women. Drawing a line could. My ethical problem with a lot of the pro and anti abortion arguments is that they focus on the act of abortion. Performing a partial birth abortion being worse than a D&C abortion. Murder is murder I dont care how you slice it! The question needs to be is it murder. As for the different methods of birth control I find I am misinformed on some fronts. I always thought the Pill prevented pregnancy by not allowing the fertilized egg to be implanted same as the IUD. Now Im reading that the release of an egg may be prevented and that no fertilization takes place. Without specific information deciding on whether birth control should be legal is impossible for me. The fact that the rich could circumvent is a fairness issue with me but not an ethical one. Im not going to advocate the legalization of murder because of the O.J. trial. Ive had the unfortunate civil privilege to sit on two juries hearing testimony on the charge of murder 1. In one of those cases two young girls ages 4 and 6 were beaten one dying of a ruptured spleen and lacerated liver the other surviving. Two adults were present at the time of the beatings. The States Attorneys office decided to give one immunity to testify against the other and then had the audacity to ask for the death sentence. The evidence in the case was he said, she said the crime scene evidence was ZERO. No pictures, no nothing. We had autopsy pictures of the deceased and pictures taken of the survivor two days later. The States Attorney felt we needed to kill someone for this crime and because they didnt think a jury would kill both adults they though wed kill him rather than her. They waved the pictures in front of us for days. No one was disputing that a grievous crime had been committed but evidence of a crime does not constitute evidence of guilt under the law. I will admit that I calculated the distance between the jury box and the defense table more than once, trying to decide how many shots I could get in before the Deputy Sheriff subdued me. Given my age and physical condition and the age and condition of the defendant the Sheriff would have been doing me the favor but I would have felt a lot better. Killing of the unborn is a terrible thing but unless we decide that the unborn are entitled to protection under the law and all that entails, all we can do is argue view points. LongHaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongHaul Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 Rooster7, Does the belief in a Holy and Righteous God demand that that God also be a vengeful God? Is it possible to believe in a Holy and Righteous God who loves all his children and will forgive all their transgressions no matter what. Parental love kinda thing. LongHaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 LongHaul, Absolutely. His love was and is expressed through His gift to us, the blood of His son Jesus. However, if it were not for Jesus sacrifice on the cross to atone for our sins, I believe our condemnation would be just. Or if we reject his gift, I see no reason why we should expect to escape His wrath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongHaul Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 Rooster7, Fine, that's how I was raised, but as I've grown and since I've become a parent myself I find that I question the "died for our sins" concept and lean toward "was willing to die on the cross to show us the way" philosophy and the "wrath" part doesn't fit with the God the Father image. My kids have disappointed and down right hurt me on occasion but I love them none the less. I turn a deaf ear when they ask for help out of a jam due to lazyness on thier part but would never allow real harm or need to occur. The God I pray to does not condem his creation we condem each other. LongHaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 I guess the real question is: Are we sure that we are one of His children? Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. Luke 8:42 & 43 Also, I think while God uses earthly models such as our relationships with our children to teach us lessons about love and forgiveness, we cannot assume that these models parallel our relationship with Him. We, as earthly fathers, are flawed beings - very often more flawed than our children. This is not the case with God, our heavenly father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongHaul Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 Rooster7, Who among us could be considered not one of Gods children if he did indeed create us all? Are there humans on this planet not of Gods doing? Just because my children defy me and dishonor me they are none the less my children. LongHaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 We all are God's children. But not all of use consider God our Father. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 A little biological humor for the morning here... Some people cringe when I say this but it is true for many animals, people included - paternity is always in doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 To those who believe in the Bible If we are all Gods children, then how do you explain Jesus words? Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." John 8:42-47 Truly, I believe God gives everyone the opportunity to seek Him and to repent of their sins. However, not everyone does. As I read Scripture, those who refuse to recognize their sinful heart and to seek Jesus to atone for their sins, are not Gods children. The above verses speak to this point rather clearly. "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know mejust as the Father knows me and I know the Fatherand I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my lifeonly to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:14-18 Again, the above verses imply that there are those who will not know Jesusour listen to his voice, and thus will not be of his flock. If you in fact believe that the Bible is Gods Word, and still have doubts, then try reading Romans 9. I ask that you provide another explanation, other than there are those who will seek Him His children, and those who will not who are not His children.(This message has been edited by Rooster7) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 So....what do you think of the Book of Judas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Before coming to Christ, if ever I believed that the source of my faith was fallible - I would have looked elsewhere. That is, I did not choose to believe in the existence of Hell, because its a place that I want to know existsreserved for those who are not Gods children. Even believers have occasional moments of self-doubt regarding their salvation. The prospect of Hell is daunting. So why would anyone want to believe that such a place is real? If this was a simple matter of picking a faith that one feels comfortable with, then I would have remained a Catholic (although they too believe that Hell exists). I had already embraced and participated in the rituals which my religion had prescribed for me. I could have stayed the course and continued in my faith. In some strange way, I did feel connected to God. Yet, my faith seemed shallow, if not - nonexistent. I did not feel as if I was worthy to stand before God. I felt accountable for my sinsthat judgment was impending. Given that I was a practicing Catholic, and one who believed in and embraced the God of the Bible, I had no reason to feel that way. When I finally asked for Christ to come into my life, it was more out fear then a proclamation of love although, I do love Christ and the life He calls us to live. My point for sharing these thoughts is this I did not choose the path I followed. God revealed His truth to me. I recognized it, was condemned in my heart, repented, and found freedom through Christ, His son. This is how I came to be saved. I realize that you may not believe or appreciate this testimony. But I ask you to consider this Do you really believe that your God exists? Or do you choose to believe in a god that you have createdbecause he does not condemnbecause it is safebecause it allows you to sleep at night? I know God exists, and I know who He is. I understand why there is a Hell. And because of that, I understand and appreciate the gift that Hes offered us, and accept it with a very grateful heart. I cannot explain to you exactly how I came to know Godother than getting on my knees and praying. For many, I know that my words will be interpreted as arrogance. However, I offer this for you to ponder. If you cannot speak confidently about your faith, why do you embrace it? Faith is not believing in God when there is no reason to do so. Faith is knowing God. Its recognizing the truth when it is spoken, even when many do not. Do you know what it is like to truly worship God? Have you ever praised God in song and truly felt His presence? Do you understand and appreciate His love for us, or do you merely presume it? Ive stood before God and praised him with an open and contrite heart. I know what it is to feel His arms around me. Ive cried tears of joy, because Hes given me a peace that surpasses all understanding. And while these are emotional responses, they are responses that were not in me prior to knowing Him. Im not trying to convince you of anything but this - the path to God is not a path which is found out of convenience. That path is discovered when one responds in earnest to Gods promptings. If you confess your sins and seek Him with a sincere heart, he will place you on that path. If you reject Him as God the Father, then He will allow you follow a different path, one that leads condemnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Packsaddle, Do you want to know my opinion about the Da Vinci code too? What about Paradise Lost? Hansel and Gretel? When does it stop? If you believe in the Bible and its teachings, then you'd know that this kind of non-sense will never stop. Because Satan will find ways to garble the truth, especially for those who are willing to buy into it. Even if I could dispel every doubt about everything written that deals with the God of the Bible, tomorrow somebody will produce something else and there will be just as many skeptics. No, I'm sorry...I don't have the time for that kind of non-sense.(This message has been edited by Rooster7) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevorum Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Rooster, I am very curious about your view of the Gospel of Judas. I fully understand your opinion of the Dan Brown fiction, but I would have thought that you would have been excited to learn of the translation of the ancient Coptic texts, a genuine biblical-era artifact. Do you have a similar opinion about the Dead Sea Scrolls? I am genuinely curious about your views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevorum Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Dang. Now I'll never know. I'll miss him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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