Speak out and get ousted - no free speech in BSA

[jkhny]

This is getting absurd.... about "free speech" American values and listening to its members? The hypocrisy is getting to be a bit much - BSA has too many well paid Execs and BSA National is sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars in LIQUID assets doing NOTHING to support Scouting.

 

 

From:

 

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/14201540.htm

 

 

 

Scoutmasters fighting to have leader reinstated

Support grows for 'Red Dog' Maynard; some call for ouster of executive director

MICHAEL BARBER

Herald Staff Writer

 

MANATEE - Manatee County Boy Scout leaders flocked to the defense of Scout leader B.J. "Red Dog" Maynard on Monday as the fight over Camp Flying Eagle continued to fester.

 

Officials at the Southwest Florida Boy Scout Council office in Fort Myers asked Maynard, 75, to resign Friday because he spearheads a group suing the council to ensure Camp Flying Eagle is not sold to developers.

 

The Southwest Florida Council, headed by executive director Gary Hampton, oversees scouting in a seven-county area, including Manatee County.

 

Carlos Mendez, a local pediatrician and scoutmaster for Troop 8 for the past three years, said Monday he's organizing a grassroots effort within the scouting community to have Hampton fired and Maynard reinstated.

 

"We've had a conflict with the executive board of the Southwest District for some time," Mendez said. "It started when they took bids on the camp; then when they asked Red Dog to resign, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. He is the reason the Boy Scouts of America exist in Manatee County."

 

Don Hall, assistant scoutmaster of Troop 8, also said the conflict between the council and Manatee County Scout leaders has been simmering for some time.

 

"I don't know of a single Scout leader in Manatee County that has a favorable impression of the council office in Fort Myers," Hall said. "They just don't listen to Manatee County."

 

For much of the past year local Scout leaders have been concerned that council officials might sell Camp Flying Eagle to eager developers interested in the 187-acre waterfront property located off Upper Manatee River Road.

 

Hampton has steadfastly maintained that the council is not actively marketing the property but it does listen to offers; and if the price was right, the camp could be sold.

 

The price would have to be substantial because in August 2005 the council's executive committee rejected a $12million offer for the camp from Silver Companies of Fredricksburg, Va., according to Herald archives.

 

Also on Monday, Andrew Romines, chief operating officer for the Foundation of Dreams, said the foundation's board of directors extended an offer of $6.5 million for Camp Flying Eagle on Feb. 14.

 

The Foundation of Dreams leases 10 acres of Camp Flying Eagle from the Southwest council for its Dream Oaks Camp, a facility for developmentally challenged, physically handicapped and terminally ill children. The 10-year lease cost the foundation $1 a year.

 

"We have not received anything in writing regarding our offer," Romines said. "Part of the provisions of our contract would be to keep it a camp for scouting and for youth in perpetuity; and to keep the name Camp Flying Eagle."

 

Conflict of interest?

 

On March 21, Manatee County Commissioners voted 6-0 to change the county's future land-use map so that Camp Flying Eagle would be required to remain a recreational area, thus saving its use as a Boy Scout camp.

 

It was at that meeting that Maynard spoke as president of the Manatee County Boys Development Association, an organization that filed suit in September 2005 to keep the Southwest Florida Boy Scout Council from selling the camp to developers.

 

Hampton said it wasn't until that county commission meeting that council officials learned Maynard's role in the lawsuit.

 

"It was a little bit of shock to learn that he is the president of the organization that is suing an organization of which he is a member," Hampton said Monday. "We think that is a clear conflict of interest."

 

There were other ways, within the structure of the Boy Scouts, for Maynard to address his concerns over Camp Flying Eagle, Hampton said.

 

"There is a process within the system that he could have followed to keep it from being sold," Hampton said. "Mr. Maynard went a direction that is inconsistent with being loyal to the scouting program as a whole."

 

Hampton also defended the council's accomplishments over the last 10 years.

 

"We've been a quality council," Hampton said. "We've gained national recognition, we've had hundreds of Eagle Scouts, we have a balanced budget and we've had hundreds of thousands of dollars improvements to both camps (Camp Flying Eagle and Camp Miles in Punta Gorda)."

 

Mendez and Hall said Maynard's dismissal just drove a deeper wedge between Scout leaders in Manatee County and the council office.

 

"Maybe it's time to go back to our own council," Hall said. "That way we would have a council more in tune with this community."

 

Prior to 1995, there was a separate Boy Scout council covering Manatee and Sarasota counties. The name of the council was the Sunny Land Council, which merged with the Southwest Florida Council on Jan. 1, 1995.

 

Communication is key

 

Margi Nanney, scouting volunteer committee chairman for Manatee County, said Maynard's forced departure will dramatically impact local scouting activities.

 

"He's the heart of volunteer spirit in Manatee County," Nanney said. "It would take a lot of people to fill all of the roles that he fills and his departure affects the kids and adults alike. From a district standpoint, his loss cripples us."

 

Nanney said the entire situation is unfortunate.

 

"This could have all been prevented long ago with the proper communication," Nanney said. "It's all been bubbling up for quite some time because of how an entire county feels about preserving what is to us, a sacred piece of property."

 

Meanwhile, Maynard answered an endless stream of phone calls Monday and tried to respond to more than 200 e-mails he received over the weekend.

 

Asked what he would say to his ardent defenders within the local scouting community, Maynard issued a warning.

 

"I'd tell them to throttle it back a little bit," Maynard said. "Our council executive (Hampton) has a history of getting rid of people who disagree with him."

 

Michael Barber, Herald reporter, can be reached at mbarber@HeraldToday.com and 748-0411, ext. 2640.

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok, so this guy sues the council not to sell a camp that he doesnt know for sure is for sale, is that the gist? I want to be sure before I say more.

 

PS Filing a lawsuit is a bit more than "free speech", wouldnt it be ironic if the Council has to sell the camp to cover the legal fees generated by the suit?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Rooster7]

No. The real absurdity is this guy's continual posting to this site. No. Actually, the biggest absurdity are those on this forum that continually defend his postings...as if by doing so they are reaching new heights in patriotism. Free speech is free speech. When its exercised, its value is in the substance of the thoughts expressed by those words. If those words ring hollow, then its just a clanging gongnotable, but very annoying.

[evmori]

Well, I for one think jkhny needs to get a life but he/she has just as much of a right to post here as anyone else! It does seem like a lot of useless yelling at the rain,

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[jkhny]

Some seem to believe that BSA can do no wrong and refuse to believe otherwise. Your choice. Amazing how much evil occurs when "good people" remain silent and avert their eyes.

 

SCOUTING is a great program. When those running it subvert its values they should be held accountable.

 

I love how those who no nothing about issues presume to know MORE - or presume that others know nothing. Have talked with a number of people in this Council which is more than those here have done. NO VOLUNTEER leaders in this Council support this sale. One said 3,990 out of the 4,000 adult leaders there were screaming to the Boartd there about this. Note that the SE has a rep for punishing people - comments below cite others worried about retribution.

 

Like it or not, there are some VERY bad things going on with some of the professionals in BSA - things that BSA SHOULD find intolerable. Instead, National ignores or supports this behavior. We should all be appalled. A professional I know with roots in Southern Region notes that paid leadership there has been a recurring problem..... the scandals there are far from over...despite efforts of those higher up to bury things.

 

Any organization that stakes out the high ground for "character" should avoid ANY behavior that leads others to question those claims. BSA is hiding far too much.

 

But then it's easier to personally attack the poster than refute the posts.

 

From L-server

 

Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 03:03:42 +0000

From: "waikiki2@comcast.net"

Subject: Not one Scout volunteer in Manatee County has come forward

 

Posted on Sun, Mar. 26, 2006

 

 

Frittering away 75 years of good will

 

Jim Jones

 

East Word

 

*T*here is finally a human face on the conflict over whether Camp

Flying

Eagle should be sold to developers. Or whether it should remain a place

for Boy Scouts to get acquainted with nature, to learn values and

skills

that will benefit them for a lifetime.

 

That face belongs to longtime volunteer camp master B.J. "Red Dog"

Maynard, 75, who has been asked to resign for daring to fight to keep

Camp Flying Eagle a Scout campground.

 

Reporter Nick Azzara confirmed the details Friday with both Red Dog and

Gary Hampton, executive director of Southwest Florida Council of Boy

Scouts.

 

It didn't take long for the Scout hierarchy to seek Red Dog's

resignation as a volunteer after he invoked his constitutional rights.

Those would be the right of free speech and the right to seek redress

of

an issue through the court system.

 

Red Dog is president of the Manatee County Boys Development

Association,

the group which filed suit against the Scout council to stop it from

entertaining offers to buy the camp.

 

The professional Scouts who manage the council have squandered much

good

will in Manatee County by first denying that Camp Flying Eagle was for

sale, and then later grudgingly admitting that they were considering

offers.

 

The truth seems to be that the Scout hierarchy would sell Camp Flying

Eagle in a heartbeat if the price were right. That they did not come

out

and say that initially sends the wrong message to the community, and

more importantly to the boys whom scouting is supposed to serve.

 

If the paid Scout officials really believe that they no longer need

Camp

Flying Eagle, then they should return it to the community which made a

gift of it to scouting more than 75 years ago.

 

Not one Scout volunteer in Manatee County has come forward, to my

knowledge, to publicly support the council's plans to sell Camp Flying

Eagle.

 

In fact, we've heard from several volunteers fearful of retribution if

they go public with their opposition to selling Camp Flying Eagle. What

kind of retribution? Being kicked out of scouting, we suppose.

 

There is no shortage of subdivisions in East Manatee, but there is only

one Camp Flying Eagle, a valuable piece of wooded real estate on the

upper Manatee River.

 

Where would Scouts go if this property were sold? Hampton has said in

the past other property several counties to the south would be the

place.

 

No one in Manatee County is swallowing the argument that this would be

a

better deal for local Scouts. Maybe it would improve the financial

standing of the council, yes. But better serve local Scouts, no.

 

We hope young Scouts are paying attention to the fight going on over

Camp Flying Eagle. There's a good lesson to be learned from Red Dog

Maynard in showing the courage of your convictions.

 

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/14188317.htm

 

[evmori]

While I respect your freedom of speech, jkhny, it would be real nice if you had an original thought instead of a copied and possible plagiarized one.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dan]

You live in the midwest.

You claimed to have inside information about the issues in Atlanta.

You claimed to have inside information about the Chicago council.

And now you say you have inside information in Florida.

I am going to have call BS.

 

You are correct there is no free speech in the BSA.

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually he lives in New York state ( I think)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[jkhny]

Talked to the people involved in Fla. today. Have had long conversations with those in Atlanta, Alabama, Chicago and elsewhere - which is more effort that any detractors have put into finding out what's going on. CAC may be the first time volunteers have managed to take control of their own Council and is of interest especially because the former President was the National Head of "Learning for Life" and one of National's favorites. He'd rather sell off property and pay for membership in LFL to boost counts. Doesn't do much for Scouting though.

 

There is a growing network of people fed up with the abusive behavior shown by some professionals and their hand-picked Boards. And more than a few "insiders" from BSA - some prety high up - support the efforts being made to hold BSA accountable. They can't speak out publicly unless they want to lose their jobs - which may account for the info fed to S4A and others.

 

These aren't "outsiders" "attacking" BSA - these are Scouters with DECADES of service to Scouting calling for BSA to practice what it preaches. It's time for an end to enrollment fraud, financial games and questionable property sales. The past two years have shown a growing resistance to this BS - and a willingness to fight BSA's increasingly desperate efforts to silence "dissidents". BSA seems to have forgotten that paid staff - indeed BSA itself - exists to serve and support the efforts fo the volunteers running Scoutng for boys in the US. BSA is NOT supposed to be he means to a very well paid and secure sinecure for a few high level executives.

 

As noted previously, these issues are not everywhere. But the minority involved dominate some regions and National and set the tone for the whole organization. They do NOT want ANY questioning - fearful of the result. At some point, the volunteers in BSA - or worse yet, the government - may actually demand full and open accounting - to see just where all the money IS going. BSA should worry. It's losing many of its friends in high places to their own corruption charges. A full and open accounting may prove very embarassing. The whole LFL issue is one that long serving Scout leaders are incensed over - and the finances are quite "convoluted" and "questionable."

 

Guess it's all hard for some to believe. BSA not "trustworthy" - horrors. You can keep your head in the sand if it makes you happier. You don't have to read anything I post.

 

 

From headlines link on this site

 

 

[packsaddle]

I agree with Ed. Jkhny has written nothing so far that is cause for him to be ejected from the forum. If someone doesn't like what he writes, either say so and explain why...or else just sit there and stew.

 

The issue is an interesting one actually. If a person meets every qualification to be an adult member, to paraphrase a forum member who no longer posts...that person should be allowed in. There is nothing in the qualifications that says they have to agree with everything BSA does. The sale of property has nothing to do with policy on social issues. It is merely a business decision and should have no bearing on membership. Jkhny brought this issue to light to make a point that BSA is willing to kick members out because of an honest disagreement. Members whose interest in the boys is great enough to stick their necks out on the issues.

I think this IS a free speech issue. BSA may have the right as a private club to dump anyone for any reason, in spite of meeting every membership qualification. Such action may be legal but it is also cowardly.

[OldGreyEagle]

JKHNY,

 

Ok. maybe I have been too harsh with you. Obviously you have passion for the topics on which you post. I think the issue for most members of the forum is that it is of little or no interest or value to us individually. I have my hands full trying to keep a Venture Crew active and healthy, while supporting the Troop and my ADC responsibilities. I would venture to guess most of the members have similar situations. We have our hands full and are not likely to go off tilting at the windmills of other councils problems.

 

I don't know if Red Dog was treated fairly or not. I do know that if a member of any arganization decided to sue the leaders of the organization, having membership revoked should not be a surprise.

 

This is not to say there arent issues in the FLorida council, but what do you want us to do? The best lesson here is to be sure you weave yourself or like thinking individuals into the fabric of council leadership. Beyond that I dont know what we can do.

[OldGreyEagle]

Pack, you slipped yours in whilst I was composing mine. I don't see it as an issue of "Free Speech" Free Speech is guaranteed by the Constitution and applies to govermental units, not private organizations. Most people, even non-catholics are familiar with the Knights of Columbus, a catholic fraternal organizaton which does tons of service, it is male only. If as a member I sued to force female membership, I wouldnt be surprised to learn my memership was being revoked.

[Beavah]

If as a member I sued to force female membership, I wouldnt be surprised to learn my memership was being revoked.

 

Yah, but that's not what happened, eh? The man is President of another organization, and that other organization (presumably at the direction of its board) sued the scout council. As he was just a volunteer with the BSA, it's also fallacious and deliberately misleading to call it a "conflict of interest."

 

Is it "legal" for the BSA to revoke his membership? Sure. But that's not the standard of behavior to which we should hold ourselves. The question is rather "is it right?" - is it in keeping with the Scout Oath and Law that we all pretend to hold so dear?

 

I appreciate hearing bad news when it comes out. It reminds me to keep vigilant in my back yard. It prepares me for questions I might get from parents, unit leaders, community members.

 

If we're mentally awake, we have to recognize that this constant buzz of fraud and mismanagement, with a new council poppin' up every month, isn't good for kids or the program.

 

And that's not da fault of da messenger, eh?

 

[Trevorum]

My two cents:

 

I know nothing about the issues or persons in this particular case. However, if I saw something going drastically wrong in my own council and I believed it was due to mismanagement and poor leadership by the SE and his inner circle, I would protest and make waves. My loyalty is to the Scouting movement and the youth it serves and NOT to a particular executive or a particular council. Yes, there is always the chance that causing embarrassment to the powers that be will get you ejected from the private club.

[ronvo]

Trev - I agree.

 

Obivously the Scouting community is upset over the situation. What I see here on the forum is that many who post are in support of the "Professionals" and they think the volunteers who go against the "professional's judgement" are just rabble rousers.

 

That is until it happens in their council.

 

OSO,

ronvo