To Search or Not to Search

[LongHaul]

I hear on the news this morning that the federal government has won its court case to force Google to turn over data on search history. The courts did not give the government the scope it had wanted but decided that the government can demand Google turn over search histories for specific categories so they, the government, can see who searched these topics. According to the report I heard, terrorism and related topics were not the main concern pornography topped the list areas of interest to our federal government. Ah the days of terms like sufficient prior cause, when fishing expeditions actually involved fish.

LongHaul

 

[LongHaul]

Rooster 7,

Long Haul whether you intended it to be interpreted this way or not, your quote is meant for people of prejudice and/or insensitivity, who turn a blind eye to injustices and atrocities which do not affect them directly. Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant something else. If you meant for it to be interpreted properly likening me to the citizenry of NAZI Germany who supposedly were aware of atrocities but chose to ignore them - then I have a few choice words for you which I cannot post here. Use your imagination.

      Your interpretation of my Martin Niemoeller quote is very interesting. You immediately see it as an attack on you rather than an explanation of my position. You tell me how I meant the post. You go on to give the citizenry you do not wish to be likened to the benefit of the doubt and say supposedly were aware, interesting. You immediately seize on the alleged atrocities supposedly committed at the time of the quote rather than the quote itself. I do not compare you to the citizenry of Nazi Germany in the sense that you are turning a blind eye to KNOWN atrocities. As you say I have no example to quote which you would accept in making this a KNOWN threat. The quote was meant to point out that if we wait till it affects us personally it could be to late. Do unto others.. Defend their rights as you would want them to defend yours. The monitoring of Google searches, wire taps, suppressions of previously enjoyed freedoms i.e. appearing at a political rally wearing opposing slogans. are all indicators to me but apparently not you. If I had altered the quote to read; First they attacked my right to privacy but I did not cry out. Then they attacked my right to speak out but I did not cry out. Then they attacked my right to be considered innocent until proven guilty but I did not cry out. Then they attacked me and no one was allowed to cry out. Would that have made my point better? I think you attack me because you can't attack my argument which should be reason enough for you to beware. As has been asked already in different words; "What happens to you when the extreme LEFT gets to wield these powers?" Before you start typing I do not accuse you of being extreme Right only ask what happens when those at the extreme end of being opposed to your views gain power. When the atheist, draft dodger, long haired, hippy freak, pinko, commie, fag, junkie Independent Candidate gets elected because just enough people had lapses of judgment and cast a protest vote, do you really want him/her/it(?) with the powers to suspend your rights?

LongHaul

[BrentAllen]

I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I am GLAD the FBI found out that "...people in his class (with Arab sounding names) were sending emails back and forth about terrorist groups (like Hamas and Hizbullah)."

If the FBI missed those emails, then how are they ever going to catch the real bad guys?!?! If this professor didn't expect that kind of attention, I don't think he should be teaching at the college level. Duhhh!

The bottom line is right now, our intelligence is in pretty bad shape. Whether that is due to all the cuts under Clinton or for whatever reason, we don't know who the bad guys are, nor where they are located. Given that fact, how do any of you propose we protect ourselves from terrorists? If we can't listen in on phone calls and check emails, how does the NSA, CIA or FBI locate and stop the terrorists? What do you suggest? Would y'all consider the government checking the rolls of students taking flying lessons as an invasion of privacy?

SR540Beaver wants to know when the war on terror is going to end. I doubt it will end in our lifetimes. We didn't start this war, it came to us. As long as militant Muslims see the west as a bunch of infidels, and want to destroy us, we will be on the defensive. Now, we could surrender - give us support for Israel, pull all our troops out of the Mid-East. I'm curious what you think would happen then.

 

[Lisabob]

Brent, let me clarify. I (and my colleague - we talked quite a bit about this) wouldn't have had too much of a problem with the FBI checking into those emails (though, as I mentioned, this guy had been doing this particular simulation for years and never run into any problem in the past). But they gave him a VERY hard time, well beyond what might have been reasonable. And then even after explanations were given and supported by abundant evidence, they posted two FBI agents IN HIS CLASSROOM for the remainder of the semester. This was a class on international conflict; debate, discussion, and frank exchange of ideas and views are typically part of this course, and having a couple of FBI agents (no kidding, in bad dark suits with opaque sunglasses) sitting in the room did a real number on students' willingness to engage in discussion. What if they said the "wrong" thing? This type of situation was precisely why our founders included a prohibition against forcibly quartering soldiers in private homes during times of peace. The presence of government "minders" has a chilling effect on political speech. Once the FBI assertained that this was not a terrorist plot in the making, they should've left this guy and his students alone.

 

In the immediate post-9/11 atmosphere where some people were killed (though not by the FBI, mind you) in certain parts of this country just because they "looked Arab," (and in some cases they were Sikhs from India!) there was - and to an extent, remains - a palpable fear within the Arab communities around here. It is a shame too because we're talking mainly about people who are keenly aware of and grateful for the freedoms and liberties that make America a great country. That's why many of them fled to this country to start with. Consequently perhaps they are also more alert to curbs on those freedoms and liberties, than many Americans who have not had personal experience with tyranny and oppression.

 

Lisa'bob

[jkhny]

James Madison - "When tyranny cones to these shores it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

 

We're already building "detention camps" for "immigrants."

 

Warrants are no longer required despite laws that say they are.

 

Whistleblowers that expose illegal acts are more in risk of being jailed than those committing the illegal acts in question.

 

An FBI translator is under a court ordered gag order for reasons of "National Security" - unable to discuss the issues she stumbled across involving arms trafficking, governments, terrorists and more - things that had Congressmen outraged..... but it's Secret. Talk and go to prison.

 

We are outraged when ports are managed by an Arab company but stay silent as Constitutional rights are taken away.

 

 

 

Franklin was asked "What kind of government do we have - republic or monarchy?" His telling response - "A republic if we can keep it."

 

We are in grave danger of losing it. And why? Are a few "terrorists" a graver threat than Fascist Germany and militaristic Japan were? Are they a larger threat than the Soviet Union was - a nation armed with hundreds, thousands of nuclear warheads with the means to deliver them?

 

We should be ashamed at standing by silently as this happens.

 

 

This once shining beacon of individual rights and democracy now tortures people, violates international law and strips its own citizens of Constitutional rights. We were never perfect but we TRIED to be better than the rest of the world. We TRIED to uphold ideals. No more. We are a bully who thinks we can force others to do as we want. All the good will felt towards the US after 9/11 has been squandered. We are hated, seen as a profligate glutton, consuming more of the world's resources than any one else - and confronted with an ever declining supply of oil - believes the simplist solution is to take what we want (using specious justifications).

 

We are becoming all we once fought against in the Soviet Union - a "one party" state where membership in the Nomenklatura gives you priviledges no others can have. A corrupt few exploit the majority and do as they wish with no consequences. Or - using another analogy - we have gone from Republic to Empire and are well on the road to decline - all in less than a decade. At least Rome lasted a thousand years.

 

Many in our military, the FBI and CIA are outraged at what is going on. We are only seeing a small part of it all.

 

When even former Reagan officials are saying THEY think information being collected is being used to pressure media figures and even politicians...... think about it.....why have so many caved after first speaking out? About all those investigations we were promised?

[BrentAllen]

Wow. I don't know whether I'm glad or sad to see that jkh not only hates the BSA, but he also hates the USA. I think a move to Canada would suit him well.

He asks, "Are a few "terrorists" a graver threat than Fascist Germany and militaristic Japan were? Are they a larger threat than the Soviet Union was - a nation armed with hundreds, thousands of nuclear warheads with the means to deliver them?"

 

The answer.... Yes!!! Too bad you can't see that?!?!

 

The German, Japanese and Soviet armies wore uniforms. You knew who they were, and where they were. The terrorists are right here in our backyard, living among us, and we have no idea who they are, or even how many there are. The do not wear uniforms; they have chosen their field of battle - our country, our cities. If you think all the terrorists went up in flames on 9/11, you are kidding yourself.

A terrorist with a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb, detonated in a major city in the US, will do more damage to this country than Japan did at Pearl Harbor. It will severly cripple our economy and cause tremendous panic. And who will be the first crying about how our government should have been able to stop the attack? Those same people who were crying about the Patriot Act, those like jkh.

 

 

 

[t158sm]

"Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. And let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed."

Barry Goldwater

[t158sm]

My entire adult life I've considered myself a conservative Republican. But now with the things (our) government is doing, I begin to wonder.

Untold millions - billions of dollars spent on foreign countries but, "W" wants to cut domestic programs to the bone. What has our country come to?

Homelessness, hunger, drug abuse. So many problems, yet these are the things that are expendable.

Even the foundations of our countries birth being swept aside. Are we becoming what we've fought against so many times?

[GernBlansten]

I've always considered myself a conservative. I am no way a Republican anymore. The republican party has wandered down the path towards fascism and away from conservative values. The last 3 years have confirmed my suspicions. I hope the 2006 elections will send a message to the Republicans to return to their Reagen roots and correct their course.

[SR540Beaver]

Rooster,

 

I'm not quite sure how you can take the reasoned and legitimate concerns of conservative patriotic citizens and see them as rants and hysteria......but you are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. I've detected your comments and responses to be directly in line with the talking points of pundits such as Rush, Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Tony Snow, Ann Coulter, etc. I suspect that you take most of your information from those kind of sources since you repeat their points almost verbatim. Again, it is your right to develop your opinions from sources that support your views. That doesn't really do anything to support your claim of no proof in the pudding however. It just means you limit yourself to one brand of pudding. I suggest that you do a Google search on "patriot act abuse" to find that there are indeed proofs to that which you choose not to believe. Yes, you'll find stories from the ACLU, but you'll also find stories from sources such as Fox News.

[John-in-KC]

I have a friend. We're active in church, we're active Scouters, although in different units in different districts. Our sons have been friends since their Bear year; both are driving on Eagle.

 

Last night, at supper before worship, we both talked about our sons' future. Although both of us gave our professional lives to this Nation, neither of us are ready to look our young men in the eye and advocate the Armed Forces as a profession.

 

Our reasoning is complex, involving people management within DOD as well as issues of the Constitution. We're just not sure about where America is going and how it's going to get there.

 

I'll tell you this: Although I am a conservative Republican, I've put both my Congresscritter and my Senator on the "watch list." Ben Franklin's quote keeps coming back: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." It seems to me we are in the middle of Franklin's Conundrum!

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Rooster,

 

I'm not quite sure how you can take the reasoned and legitimate concerns of conservative patriotic citizens and see them as rants and hysteria......but you are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. I've detected your comments and responses to be directly in line with the talking points of pundits such as Rush, Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Tony Snow, Ann Coulter, etc. I suspect that you take most of your information from those kind of sources since you repeat their points almost verbatim. I know because I listen to them almost daily, but do so with a critical ear. Again, it is your right to develop your opinions from sources that support your views. That doesn't really do anything to support your claim of no proof in the pudding however. It just means you limit yourself to one brand of pudding. I suggest that you do a Google search on "patriot act abuse" to find that there are indeed proofs to that which you choose not to believe. Yes, you'll find stories from the ACLU, but you'll also find stories from sources such as Fox News.

[Beavah]

How do I vote against the current Republicans without voting for the current Democrats?

 

There needs to be a real third option. The "honorable and responsible" party.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Beavah,

Consider it tough love. Continuing to support them makes you an enabler and co-dependant. The current Republicans must be held to atone for their behaviour. By voting for Democrats or third parties, you make them adjust their policies and actions. Even if the Dems get back both houses, it would be good for the party in the long run. If this is allowed to continue, the Republicans are on the fast track down the same path as the Whigs.

And to be practical, how could the dems be any worse than the Republicans on spending, government size or immigration?

We need to clean house and senate too!

[LongHaul]

BrentAllen,

You and I have disagreed before and I hope that wont prompt you to say consider the source and dismiss what I say. You seem to repeatedly associate the current administration with America the USA and the like. Repeatedly it has been asked if you and those aligned with you would be equally supportive of administrations with different views. Was Clinton the USA as you seem to see GWB as being the USA. What Im trying to say is that its not the administration its the concept and the ideals. You agree with GWBs vision and I respect that, but to continually say that those who oppose the current views are anti American or any USA doesnt say much for your vision. American freedom means agreeing with me doesnt seem like a freedom one would want to die defending.

You bring up the idea that German and Japanese soldiers wore uniforms so we knew who they were, but the current enemy is elusive we have no idea who they are. Reminds me of sorting villagers from VC in Viet Nam, as I remember it we got it wrong a few times. The huge difference now is that the villagers are American Citizens on American soil. They are the ones our Armed Forces are supposed to be protecting. Remember also that the NSA, CIA, FBI and BIG BROTHER et.al. do not wear uniforms either. We dont know who they are or where they are or what they are doing. They want to be held above the law and allowed scopes of action outside previously accepted limits under the pretext of defending the country. Whose country? Bushs, Clintons, yours, mine, jkhnys, thats why we have rules. Its what separates us from the rest of the world in that the ruling body cant do what the current administration is trying to do, erode civil liberties under the guise of protecting freedoms. We set rapists and child molesters and murderers free on technicalities because we are not willing to let rage and outrage cause us to lower our standards. Allowing our current enemy to cause us to suspend our civil liberties is admitting that our previous standards are no longer viable. Our way doesnt work anymore. We must become more like them in order to survive.

LongHaul