Rooster7 Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Excellent point Ed. Just like lobotomies were once commonly practiced - calling something a "medical procedure" does not make it noble or even humane. And in the case of abortion I believe it is murder (whether or not the participants realize it or not).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Excellent point Ed. Just like lobotomies were once commonly practiced - calling something a "medical procedure" does not make it noble or even humane. And in the case of abortion I believe it is murder (whether or not the participants realize it or not).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Excellent point Ed. Just like lobotomies were once commonly practiced - calling something a "medical procedure" does not make it noble or even humane. And in the case of abortion I believe it is murder (whether or not the participants realize it or not).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Whoa, John-in-KC, cool down a bit. I think you misread my post. The question is what values the makes the U.S. a Christian nation. My response was to explain my understanding by comparing it with non-Christian nations. Japan was one of the clearest examples of the values of a non-Christian nation that I could think of. I am not holding them up as an example of a nation that values human life, just the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Whoa, John-in-KC, cool down a bit. I think you misread my post. The question is what values the makes the U.S. a Christian nation. My response was to explain my understanding by comparing it with non-Christian nations. Japan was one of the clearest examples of the values of a non-Christian nation that I could think of. I am not holding them up as an example of a nation that values human life, just the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanKroh Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 In another thread, funscout writes: "This is just one of MANY examples throughout the book that show that the United States was founded on Christian principles. It was such an eye-opener for me, as my public shcool education contained none of the religious history that is so important to our nation." There is an opinion held by many that the U.S. is a Christian nation, that it was founded on Christian principles. What evidence is there to support the idea that the founders of this nation *wanted* Christian principles to be it's bedrock? There is no mention of Jesus or God the Constitution. There is mention of a Creator and once of "Nature's God" in the Declaration, but that simply promotes a deist view, not a Christian viewpoint. From their own writings, we know that many of the men involved in writing these documents (including many of the first presidents) were not Christians, they were Deists, Unitarians, and Humanists. They used these "principles" because they were common to many religions, and to humanism, not because they were strictly "Christian principles". Another eye-opening document you might want to look at is the Treaty of Tripoli of 1796, which explicitly says: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." You can look up the rest of the text at Wikipedia, if you like. But given this text staring you right in the face, I admit that I don't understand how anyone can still claim that we were founded as a Christian nation. We are a secular nation, with a secular government (or that's how it should be), where the majority of people happen to be Christian. Funscout also writes: "So...did Christopher Columbus "accidentally" discover America, or was it divine intervention?" Given what happened to the people already living in the Americas after the Europeans came (and the diseases that were carried back to Europe from the Americas), wouldn't it be more appropriate to attribute it's discovery to the devil (or whatever malevolent force exists in your religion) rather than God (or comparable benevolent force)? And if you want to attribute "divine intervention", what about giving the credit to Allah, or Vishnu, or Athena, or Lugh, or... well, you get the idea. Why should Christianity get the credit? Maybe Brigit's hand guided Columbus to America because a nation based on freedom of religion was going to be founded there, where she could be worshipped. Just something to ponder.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Whoa, John-in-KC, before you call someone's viewpoint a stinking pile of excrement, you might want to be sure you understand what was being said. In this case, you obviously didn't. The question was what values, exactly, make the U.S. a Christian nation. I said I couldn't define it except by comparison. My point was that Japan was clearly a nation without Christian values. I was not holding it up as respecting human life, just the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 From the point of view of one who is not a Christian, I think it is inescapable that this is a nation founded on Christian principles. While the men who actually crafted the structure of the country after the Revolution were not necessarily Christian, the people who started the country more than a hundred years earlier, were. In fact, they came here to escape persecution for religious beliefs or to set up their own (Christian) governments based on religion, in many cases. The principles of Christianity guided those who founded the United States in so many ways. Does that mean we are a nation under a Christian God? No. We have freedom of and from religion although there are many who would prefer it otherwise. There are many Americans, like myself, who are not Christian, but it doesn't threaten me in any way to think the nation is a Christian nation. The majority of people here are Christian. The values of the nation as a nation are Christian values (as opposed to sectarian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist). Did the Founders intend to found a nation embedded in Christianity? Obviously not. But the values prevalent at the time and the heritage of those men were Christian. They could not help but establish values that were, in essence, Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Dreaded double post. (This message has been edited by Kahuna) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Acco40, Ah abortion, let's gravitate to something less inflammatory than talking about religion! I think that was OGEs point. One should NOT view the abortion issue as a religious debate. OGE, one thing abortion is definitely not (in most cases) is murder. Murder is a legal term. Really? Hmmm. So when Cain killed Abel, it was not murder because man had not written a law yet stating it to be so? To commit murder is a crime. Obtaining or providing an abortion is legal in many states so by definition it is not murder. By that logic - Back in the day, when it was okay to prevent blacks from sitting up front on the bus, or drinking out a certain fountain, or eating in the same restaurant as whites that wasnt a violation of their rights, because it was legal in certain states? If Lybia passed a law giving their citizens permission to kill Jews, would you defend the people of that country and declare that they are not murderers? Is it killing a human? Yes. Is it immoral? Yes. Is it wrong? Yes. All good questions. Not especially - unless youre deaf, dumb, and blind. Pictures of aborted babies offend for a reason. They offend because we are forced to recognize and see the brutal dismemberment of a child. But is it murder I thought we covered that. - no (Black Hills area excluded). Is there something unique about South Dakota that prompts that conclusion? Ed and OGE hit the nail on the head. Just because something is given the distinction of being a medical procedure, that does not make it moral and acceptable. Some 50 years ago, lobotomies were common place Were those medical procedures worthy of government protection or should they have been condemned as inhumane? Whether or not the participants fully understand it to be so Abortion is murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanKroh Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Thank you, Kahuna, for your thoughtful reply. It is interesting to see the viewpoint of other non-Christians. The only problem I have with the idea of us being a "Christian nation" is that it seems to be a slippery slope that could lead us closer to being a theocracy. If we say that we are a nation based on Christian principles, who gets to decide which of those Christian principles gets incorporated into our laws? At what point of making Christian morality into law have we gone too far? When abortion is illegal? When homosexuality is a criminal offense? When birth control is illegal? When it's illegal for a business to be open on Sundays? Which "Christian" morality do we follow, since even they can't seem to agree on everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutingagain Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 This is an honest question, because I don't know. From," The values of the nation as a nation are Christian values (as opposed to sectarian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist)." Just what Christian values that would be considered the values of the nation are not shared by other faiths. What values that would be considered American values are uniquely Christian? SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 There will never be an agreement as to the beginning of life. Some believe it is at the time of conception (me included). Others believe it is when the baby is physically born. I don't think these two sides will ever come to an agreement. If a pregnant woman is shot & killed & her unborn child dies as a result of the gunshot, the shooter is charged with two murders. If the same woman decides to get an abortion & ends the life of her unborn child, that's OK. The difference, abortion is a medical procedure. Nothing else. And partial birth abortion is even worse. Gern posted Currently, it is after birth, when the child is independent of the mother. regarding when life starts. After birth, a child is not independent of it's mother! If the mother does nothing the child dies and she can be charged with murder so you argument is invalid. Don't back down from your original statement OGE. You were 100% correct. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 John-in-KC, you missed my point. The question was what values, exactly, make the U.S. a Christian nation. I said I couldn't define it except by comparison. My point was that Japan was clearly a nation without Christian values. I was not holding it up as respecting human life, just the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevorum Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I have no problem with the statement that American is a Christian nation. It's the same as saying that India is a Hindu nation, or Indonesia is an Islamic nation. That does not mean that all citizens of those nations share a single faith or even value system. The statements are mere descriptive generalities. We could say that America is a nation whose citizens are 70% Christian, 20% secular, 5% Jewish, 2% Buddhist, etc. (or whatever the actual numbers are) but that is just cumbersome in day-to day conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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