North: Values under siege

[Rooster7]

I could provide you with links to many essays by learned people who assert the same thing, but I doubt you would give them credence.

 

Sounds like youre taking this a little personally. Let me assure you, I know many learned people as well and they do not share your view. And interestingly, I doubt you would give them much credence. So why even go there try arguing the points presented.

 

Christianity never really crossed my mind, but it seemed unfair to drag Jews into your argument when they would, in reality, want to have nothing to do with putting "God" on our money.

 

I dont pretend to speak for all Jews or all Christians, but I referenced them because by definition, they have contributed to our countrys Judeo-Christian values. And while some or many or even most Jews may argue against putting In God We Trust on money; some or many or even most Jews would likely argue that this sentiment is valid for them as a people, and given our countrys history, it should be our National motto. Regardless of how the numbers parse out to be, certainly there are many Jews that comprise the majority in this country who do embrace the motto.

 

But then you bring up two different (although related, true) points and want me to discuss them with you.

 

In my post, they were the original points. But, I have no great desire to pursue a discussion with you. I merely want the truth represented.

 

What I DO have a problem with is when people try to use the presence of the motto on our currency and on our monuments as proof that we were founded as a Christian nation.

 

No, they are not proof just by products.

 

Why hasn't there been an amendment to the Constitution to do away with separation of church and state and establish Christianity as the state religion?

 

Because the clause as it was written, is good. Its the more recent bogus interpretations of the clause that need to be discarded. And btw, there is no movement in this country to force Christianity on anyone, except in the minds of the delusional.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The funniest parts of this article are:

 

Oliver North, a right-winger, stating as the guest speaker at a FOS fundraiser that the BSA is not some sort of right-wing organization. This makes as much sense as a group inviting the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan to their fundraiser to defend that group against charges of racism.

 

Oliver North demonizing the ACLU, whose criminal convictions were overturned partly through the efforts of the ACLU. Hey, where are the ACLU critics complaining how they are letting criminals off on technicalities?

 

The whole idea of Oliver North expounding on values and morals is ridiculous.

[funscout]

Several years ago, I had the privilege to hear Rev. Peter Marshall speak about Christianity in the United States. His book, "The Light and the Glory," explains how the birth of the U.S. was part of God's plan to spread Christianity. Some of you will turn your noses up at that idea, but it is an excellent book, that brings up history that most of us were not exposed to in public schools.

 

One example of something that Rev. Marshall and his co-author, David Manuel, discovered in their research, was a transcript from Christopher Columbus' "Book of Prophecies." The following is Columbus' writing from that book:

 

"It was the Lord who put into my mind (I could feel his hand upon me) the fact that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies. All who heard of my project rejected it with laughter, ridiculing me. There is no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit, because He comforted me with rays of marvelous inspiration from the Holy Scriptures... I am a most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely. I have found the sweetest consolation since I made it my whole purpose to enjoy His marvelous presence. For the execution of the journey to the Indies,I did not make use of intelligence, mathematics or maps. It is simply the fulfillment of what Isaiah had prophesied..."

 

So...did Christopher Columbus "accidentally" discover America, or was it divine intervention?

 

This is just one of MANY examples throughout the book that show that the United States was founded on Christian principles. It was such an eye-opener for me, as my public shcool education contained none of the religious history that is so important to our nation.

 

"The Light and the Glory" was published in 1977, so it might not be easy to find today, but it is very worthwhile reading.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Ollie got aid and accepted it from the ACLU? C'mon, I need more details!

[Rooster7]

The whole idea of Oliver North expounding on values and morals is ridiculous.

 

The above is offered by a man, who does not recognize an immutable foundation or force for his own morality. Ridiculous indeed!

 

Regardless of what Oliver North may or may not have done, the compass he proclaims is true. It's much superior to the ponderings of any man or any collection of men - something no atheist can honestly declare.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

OGE, the ACLU filed an amicus brief:

http://www.acluprocon.org/ACLUHistory/HistoryTable.html

...

1988

In the Iran-Contra affair "the ACLU filed an amicus brief on behalf of Lt. Col. Oliver North, arguing that the federal criminal case against him, for perjury and other crimes, violated his Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination. The prosecution's case against North, the ACLU argued, relied on compelled testimony he had given before a congressional investigating committee."

In Defense of American Liberties - A History of the ACLU, Samuel Walker, p. 375, Southern Illinois University Press (2nd ed. 1999.)

 

Rooster7 writes:

The above is offered by a man, who does not recognize an immutable foundation or force for his own morality.

 

Tell me Rooster7, if you were a soldier serving under Joshua, and his forces just took Jericho, and you were ordered to kill a bunch of children in the city ("Joshua 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." KJV), would you obey Joshua (who was doing what god ordered him to do) and kill children in a city you'd just conquered? Today that's a war atrocity.

 

If you want to start a debate about morality, I'd like to know if you'd 1) disobey your god, or 2) murder children.

[Rooster7]

I don't claim to have a full understanding of God. The Bible clearly teaches that God's ways are not man's ways. Would I kill children if God commanded me to do so? I would try to do whatever God might command me to do. That does not mean my obedience would come easily or even that I would succeed. But if I did rebel, I would be wrong. God's righteousness is absolute and unquestionable. I am not going to conjecture as to why God commanded Joshua to kill everyone in that city. However, I know that God has ultimate control over everyone's destiny. So, while we may morn the passing of our friends and family - God may well be welcoming those individuals into a kingdom of peace and joy that is incomprehensible to us. With that said, I do not know what became of those children. Nor can I witness the world through their eyes. Only God knows what an individual experiences emotionally, mentally, and physically. We can only speculate. Whatever the outcome for those children or anyone else, I know God's righteousness and his love endures forever.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I'll take that as a "I would murder children" answer.

[Rooster7]

Merlyn,

 

Being an atheist, I imagine it was really easy for you to over simplify my response and to form that conclusion. Regardless, whatever thought pops into your head, it surely must be the right answer. Some folks might think that's a nice place to be - answerable to only one's self. As for me, I prefer to bow down to a Holy God.

[Lisabob]

Rooster, I dare say you've been distracted. The issue in this thread is not whether Merlyn is an atheist or whether atheists can have unwavering moral standards, or whether we should put religious slogans on our money, or whether such slogans are indications of one religion's dominance or another's, etc., etc., etc..

 

However, if you insist on using profession of religious faith as a basis for determining who may credibly indicate disgust at the idea of Oliver North as a defender of the values supported by the BSA...well hey, let me get in line because I know there are a whole lot of folks who are religious and who share my view of the guy - he's a weasle.

 

Lisa'bob

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Not at all, Rooster7. You obviously will do whatever you think your god wants you to do, and your own bible shows that sometimes your god orders people to kill children. So I can only conclude that you would murder children if that's what you thought god wanted you to do. If not, please state the opposite, that you would NOT murder children even if you thought your god wanted you to do so. If you don't state it one way or the other, you are simply running away from the question and trying to avoid having to state a position because you don't have the courage of your convictions.

 

Plus, you have no problem making up positions that I supposedly hold, instead of ASKING me what my positions are, as I have asked you. You keep maligning atheists, yet you yourself lack moral character.

[funscout]

Merlyn, If Rooster says he would kill children if God tells him to, does that make him better or worse in your eyes? If he says he would disobey God, does that make him better or worse in your eyes? Since you don't believe in God, I would think you would be happy to see someone struggle and then decide to disobey God. I know I shouldn't presume to know your thoughts, but that's what it appears to me.

 

The example you gave was from the Old Testament. As we all know, times are quite different now than they were before Jesus' time. I can not imagine killing a child just because God tells me to. However, I know that God no longer does that. If you compare the Old Testament books to the New Testament books, you'll see that God also no longer requires animal sacrifices. If I had been alive in the Old Testament days, I would have thought animal sacrifices were normal, but living in the present, I would be appalled to see someone sacfice an animal.

 

Abraham was tested by God (again, in the Old Testament days) and although he was saddened greatly, he was prepared to kill his own son, Isaac, as God had directed him to do. I can not imagine being willing to do that. If I had lived in those days, then maybe I would understand, but I would have to say that I would disobey God if he told me to do that today. I am confident that God will no longer "test" people in that way, so the question is actually a moot point.

 

Also, as most people know, Christians are human beings, and thus, not perfect. Even Peter, one of Jesus' beloved disciples, betrayed Him, not just once, but three times, out of fear for himself. That didn't make him less Christian, it just proved that he was human.

 

You are on my list for my prayers, tonight. And I mean that in a kind and sincere way.

[GernBlansten]

In 1984, Ron and Dan Lafferty murdered (with a butcher knife) the wife and infant daughter of their younger brother Allen. The crimes were noteworthy not merely for their brutality but for the brothers' claim that they were acting on direct orders from God.

Ron Lafferty, a fundamentalist Mormon, believed he received a revelation from God to butcher his sister-in-law and niece.

 

Who are we to claim otherwise? What proof do we have God did not give Ron that revelation?

[Eamonn]

$225,000 !!

Not bad !!

Eamonn.

[BrentAllen]

Gern,

God may have told them to do that. You are right, we will never know.

Did God give them a "get out of jail free" card? No? Maybe God meant for them to be punished for the act.

Did God tell the judge or the jury to let them go free? No? Then I guess that wasn't God's intentions.

We can spin this around as much as we like. The bottom line is we will never fully understand God's work.